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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 01/27/2006 : 02:57:24 [Permalink]
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Beskeptigal chanted:
quote:
I was trying to balance giving my reaction to the fact this incident was occupying the news for quite a bit more time than the issue required, kind of like Jen and Brad's divorce and baby Branjolena, without coming across as thinking the thread wasn't worthwhile, which is not what I thought.
No worries, and certainly no offense taken! It was legitimate for you to gently point out the relative insignificance of the news item, and to wonder why I commented upon it. I not only sympathize with your feelings about sensational news of celebrities taking the place of more important stuff, I agree as well.
Normally, just the mention of any celebrity name (Oprah and her warm and fuzzy pet quack, "Dr." Phil come to mind) makes me yawn and/or change the channel/Web page, unless I by chance have some distant personal connection to the person. (In which case, I usually drop names. I find the little bastards too slippery to keep in hand.)
I certainly never met Oprah or Frey. But in this case, I caught something in the issue that rubbed my writer's soul the wrong way. And it seemed that the very celebrity status of Oprah might make my rant against mislabeled prose somehow more accessible, as she is apparently familiar to several people here and there due to some kind of TV show she has.
I do think the discussion about truth in fiction/nonfiction labeling turned out to be a good thing, so I don't (any longer) regret my choice of topic. I truely appreciate your reassuring and even more moderate words now. But rather than celebrity hijinks, I am going to try to find something more unique, funny, bizarre, or maybe even important for my next topic. ; )
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2006 : 03:16:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
I do think the discussion about truth in fiction/nonfiction labeling turned out to be a good thing, so I don't (any longer) regret my choice of topic.
Ah, don't worry about that. I've had threads I've started here that went over like a fart in church. Then others take off. It's never an easy thing to predict.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2006 : 13:22:29 [Permalink]
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Beskep continued:quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
... But rather than celebrity hijinks, I am going to try to find something more unique, funny, bizarre, or maybe even important for my next topic. ; )
My hastily posted emotional reaction to the news medias' preoccupation with cheaply produced trivial news continues to be given the wrong meaning. I'm sorry. I actually did think commenting on the overplayed news on this story alone was well worth a thread here. And I found your insight as a writer insider very useful.
But other than that, why do you care if we discuss your threads or not? I posted the Mad Cow thread and no one cared about that. But did I let that stand in the way of posting any other particular thing that caught my attention? Heck no. You don't have to like me, I only have to like myself.  |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2006 : 13:22:51 [Permalink]
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H.Humbet Intoned:
quote:
Ah, don't worry about that. I've had threads I've started here that went over like a fart in church. Then others take off. It's never an easy thing to predict.
Thanks. I like the "fart in church" idea, myself. A possible tactic skeptics might consider in another thread. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2006 : 14:30:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
You know, I hate to say it but the fact this minor unimportant thing was front page news (and continues as I saw it again just last night on either FOX or MSNBC news) doesn't say much for what the American public cares about. I turned the channel.
There are so many real things to be concerned about in the world other than a fiction book sold as non-fiction. I can't believe this matters to anyone except a small circle of friends.
Exactly what I was going to say.
And not that I believe in conspiracies BUT...... publicity as well as, who knows.....the government! want to get peoples minds off of other things that they should be more concerned about. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2006 : 14:37:36 [Permalink]
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Topic response.....
2/3 of the threads I put up get little comment, and the rest seldom get more than maybe a dozen replies, if that. Ain't no big deal. Much of what I toss in are merely things I found of interest and would like to share. They don't really require response.
At the same time, unless the topics of others are something that attracts my attention, or, better yet, concerns my rather narrow fields of expertese, I rarely reply to them beyond casual comment and/or query. Of course, I will follow the thread along if it looks interesting -- might fuck up and learn something. Or get in a fight. Or something.
I've forgotten who said it -- Franklin mayhap? -- but: "'Tis better by far to remain silent and be thought the fool, than to speak forth and remove all doubt."
Words to live by, those, and fools are a suppressed minority around here.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2006 : 15:14:36 [Permalink]
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beskeptigal muttered:
quote:
My hastily posted emotional reaction to the news medias' preoccupation with cheaply produced trivial news continues to be given the wrong meaning. I'm sorry. I actually did think commenting on the overplayed news on this story alone was well worth a thread here. And I found your insight as a writer insider very useful.
But other than that, why do you care if we discuss your threads or not? I posted the Mad Cow thread and no one cared about that. But did I let that stand in the way of posting any other particular thing that caught my attention? Heck no. You don't have to like me, I only have to like myself.
If I'd misread anything in the thread, it would not be my first time, and I know I may still be doing so. I think all the postings have been very good, none in the least mean-spirited, and really not contradictory, but rather shedding useful light from various angles. By the way, I like you, beskep. ; ) And I appreciate your kind words.
I think the original issue is probably fully played out here. I was pleasantly somewhat surprised to find that people here agreed about correctly labeling books as either fiction or nonfiction. In contrast, yesterday I head several emails read by a CNN commentator, some of them from self-identified writers, which defended the deliberate use of falsehoods in nonfiction for "literary" reasons. It seems skeptics have a higher standard.
You ask, "But other than that, why do you care if we discuss your threads or not?"
Tough one. I guess when I bother to write and post on a topic that I care about, it's rewarding to see others care about it, too. And I often learn unexpected things from their differing perspectives. Ego doubtless also comes into the equation as well. It's hard for me to say what exact role ego has in it, as the mind has ways of fooling itself about our motives. Mine does, anyway. I'd that guess most of us have invested a modicum of ego in our postings. So I'll probably go on with the hope, however faint, that people become interested in my postings.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/27/2006 15:16:42 |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2006 : 11:13:24 [Permalink]
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| I find Oprah to be annoying as all hell, what with her tireless self-promotion and her promotion of most any claim, as long as it makes you feel better (evidence? what's evidence?) She does however have a knack for raking in huge amounts of cash by skillfully playing the credulity and emotions of her fan base. In this case I think she realized that the Oprah Money Machine would be more profitable by attacking this schmuck than by defending him. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2006 : 11:44:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
I find Oprah to be annoying as all hell, what with her tireless self-promotion and her promotion of most any claim, as long as it makes you feel better (evidence? what's evidence?) She does however have a knack for raking in huge amounts of cash by skillfully playing the credulity and emotions of her fan base. In this case I think she realized that the Oprah Money Machine would be more profitable by attacking this schmuck than by defending him.
I second that.
Oprah annoys me. Furiously. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2006 : 12:13:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
I find Oprah to be annoying as all hell, what with her tireless self-promotion and her promotion of most any claim, as long as it makes you feel better (evidence? what's evidence?) She does however have a knack for raking in huge amounts of cash by skillfully playing the credulity and emotions of her fan base. In this case I think she realized that the Oprah Money Machine would be more profitable by attacking this schmuck than by defending him.
I think she's pretty. (Amazing what one can do with make up!)
But, to the point of this file. What is different about her money making publicity and self promotion that any other person on the public eye?
Government official on all sides do it, entertainment people, business people, religious, etc. Everything should be examined, before taking the word of anyone, no matter who it is. So what makes Oprah any different other than she has MORE money and more followers? That's not a reason to single her out. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2006 : 12:20:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Da filth snarls:
As a sometime freelance writer of non-fiction, I strongly object to these clowns who knowingly represent a load of bullshit as fact. This overflows into loathing when I read of O'Reilly and Limbaugh's verbal offal.
Wondering what it is that you think O'Reilly is knowing not representing correctly?
He does make me angry when he say things against the non religious but I like that he does not stick to one POV and defend it, just becaue it's supposed to be 'right' or 'left' politicaly. He makes his choices on individual issues. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2006 : 12:52:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake:
quote:
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Originally posted by R.Wreck
I find Oprah to be annoying as all hell, what with her tireless self-promotion and her promotion of most any claim, as long as it makes you feel better (evidence? what's evidence?) She does however have a knack for raking in huge amounts of cash by skillfully playing the credulity and emotions of her fan base. In this case I think she realized that the Oprah Money Machine would be more profitable by attacking this schmuck than by defending him.
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I think she's pretty. (Amazing what one can do with make up!)
But, to the point of this file. What is different about her money making publicity and self promotion that any other person on the public eye?
Oprah is by no means the only public persona I find annoying due to their shameless self-promotion. She just happens to be half of the topic of this thread.
quote:
Government official on all sides do it, entertainment people, business people, religious, etc.
Agreed.
quote:
Everything should be examined, before taking the word of anyone, no matter who it is. So what makes Oprah any different other than she has MORE money and more followers? That's not a reason to single her out.
Well she sort of tries to single herself out. (Hey, guess who's on the cover of "O"(prah) magazine this month?). When you set yourself up as a public pontificator and arbiter of what's good, then you screw up, you have to take the criticism. It just happens to be her turn (again) to take some heat. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2006 : 13:03:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Da filth snarls:
As a sometime freelance writer of non-fiction, I strongly object to these clowns who knowingly represent a load of bullshit as fact. This overflows into loathing when I read of O'Reilly and Limbaugh's verbal offal.
Wondering what it is that you think O'Reilly is knowing not representing correctly?
He does make me angry when he say things against the non religious but I like that he does not stick to one POV and defend it, just becaue it's supposed to be 'right' or 'left' politicaly. He makes his choices on individual issues.
He spins in favor of the right. He'll take a topic and barely skirt the facts of it and lean it off. He also has a vicious streak that makes me want to introduce him to my cane and my own vicious streak. He tends to bully, or attempts to bully, some of his guests and panders to others. He's been known to turn off a guest's mic if that guest is besting him in a discussion on a hot topic.
After having heard him on the radio a few times, and seen him on TV at a friend's house as well as read about him, I've decided that he's just another demogogue with a microphone and not worth my consideration.
I have never watched Oprah nor any of the other TV hosts of the genra -- nothing against them, just not my bag.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 01/28/2006 13:10:21 |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2006 : 13:08:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
[br...When you set yourself up as a public pontificator and arbiter of what's good, then you screw up...
I've seen part of her show maybe twice, and I assume she similarly has an ongoing string of guests chosen as having entertainment value- mainly popular interest as opposed to heavy-duty content- and some are bound to present fraudulence in some respects, to some degrees. Bound to happen now-and-then, unless she has a research staff really digging-in and scrutinizing (I doubt it- that would detraact from "entertainment," and thus ratings.)
As for political blowhards, I doubt a truthful one would last a week. |
Ron White |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2006 : 14:25:32 [Permalink]
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I'm not into Oprah (or any other talk shows), but she doesn't annoy me. Hell, she's encouraged a lot of people to read a lot of good books. (I've heard some of the books on her club list are crap, but most are good. I've only read two, and they were both high quality.)
But I digress...
I didn't think this topic was unworthy of being posted here on skeptic friends. My question was why it was such a big deal in the media.
Humbert wrote: "To put it in context, I bet there were people could care less that Hwang Woo-suk faked his stem cell results. I mean, who cares? I can't believe this matters to anyone except a small circle of Korean geneticists..."
First of all, I did say it was "unethical" to publish memoirs that are largely fictional. And I never said it shouldn't get any public attention. I simply said it wasn't earth-shattering.
The comparison to the faked stem cell research just doesn't hold water for several reasons. First, scientific researchers are much more depended on for their complete honesty than writers of memoirs because their research will be used by other researchers, often eventually toward practical application that will directly affect peoples' lives. Second, it is pretty much a given that memoirs stretch the truth all the time. It doesn't claim to be journalism. That doesn't make it alright to outright lie about stuff while claiming it to be the truth. I'm just saying that people should realize when they pick up a book of memoirs that it is primarily about good story telling, even if the stories are based in reality. It is largely a form of art and entertainment.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 01/28/2006 14:27:58 |
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