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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 02/21/2006 : 06:12:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Is this a good list or a bad list?
It's a Special High Intensity Training list. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2006 : 06:28:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
(bill) Win? This is not a contest for me. I seek to pursue and to know truth. What better way to test what you believe to be truth then to openly discuss it with those who don't?
Ah but Bill, you do not discuss; you semi-rant. You make bold statements and offer exactly nothing to back them up beyond your opinion. That ain't discussion, bro.
Current thought has it that abiogenesis can account for orgins biological life. Exactly how the process works is the question.
Until those process' are known and rigorously tested, what the fuck, maybe God did it. There's an outside chance, assuming that there actually is some sort of god(s).
Oh, and again, the Theory of Evolution has nothing to say about orgins; it address' only those biological process' that occured after those oigins.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2006 : 06:45:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
And by the bye, not all evolutionary scientists are atheists.
(bill) But you are an atheist, you said so, so I am asking you... Can you please give me one of the top atheistic theories on the origins of physical matter and the origins of life in a completely materialistic universe?
After centuries of thought and much time to hone their position I am expecting atheistic theory to come strong here. Remember, no lame, or unimaginative justso stories will cut the mustard on this forum so you better bring your A game...
An atheist I am (why does that disturb you?), but an evolutionary biologist I am not. I am merely a humble follower in the footsteps of Audubon and Darwin; two individuals that enlightened the world as to it's nature far more than Jesus....
I have told no just-so stories. I have made considered statements and provided reference. You have merely made statements.
So, how does the skeleton of the fruit bat compare with a human one? Is there, perhaps, some faint hint of common ancestry, way back when?
Before you answer, I'd suggest, futily perhaps, you do a little research.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2006 : 07:04:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
(bill) Win? This is not a contest for me. I seek to pursue and to know truth. What better way to test what you believe to be truth then to openly discuss it with those who don't?
Ah but Bill, you do not discuss; you semi-rant. You make bold statements and offer exactly nothing to back them up beyond your opinion. That ain't discussion, bro.
Current thought has it that abiogenesis can account for orgins biological life. Exactly how the process works is the question.
Until those process' are known and rigorously tested, what the fuck, maybe God did it. There's an outside chance, assuming that there actually is some sort of god(s).
Oh, and again, the Theory of Evolution has nothing to say about orgins; it address' only those biological process' that occured after those oigins.
Ah but Bill, you do not discuss; you semi-rant. You make bold statements and offer exactly nothing to back them up beyond your opinion. That ain't discussion, bro.
(bill) So enlighten us then great one. Teach us the art of valid discussion and explain to me your best hope on the origins of pm and life apart from an infinite creator. This is the basis for your entire worldview! I would hope you base your worldview off of more then "we don't know". After all the centuries of atheistic thought I would hope you would have at least some kind of basic hypothesis you could us walk through that you could hang your atheistic hat on at the end of the day.
Current thought has it that abiogenesis can account for orgins biological life. Exactly how the process works is the question.
(bill) Yes go on... They must have a hypothesis on how abiogenesis created physical matter and life from nothing. I would really like for you to give a base explanation of it for us.
Until those process' are known and rigorously tested, what the fuck, maybe God did it. There's an outside chance, assuming that there actually is some sort of god(s).
(bill) If after centuries of thought the atheist has no clue as to how universes and life pop into existence then how can they claim to know the odds for a god are very low? How do you know the odds are not very high?
Atheist: We fully admit that we have no idea how PM and life begin to exist when they did not exist before.
Creationist: Well if you have no clue then how can you deduce the claim that God has a very slim outside shot as the creative agent?
Atheist: We just can...
Oh, and again, the Theory of Evolution has nothing to say about orgins; it address' only those biological process' that occured after those oigins.
(bill) So what? The evolutionist will blow off the whole subject of origins of PM and life as insignificant and say "we don't know" and "we don't know", but when it comes to explaining the array of life and physical matter we see around us all of sudden they become empirical experts and insist that blind luck and chance "did it" and who cares about how the PM and/or life got here to begin with?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2006 : 08:03:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
...all of sudden they become empirical experts and insist that blind luck and chance "did it" ...
So after 236 posts here you are using this utterly stupid and false argument.
You are obviously not the sharpest tool in the box.quote:
This is not a contest for me. I seek to pursue and to know truth.
I'll guess this claim was a lie then.
What is wrong with "we don't know"? You don't know either. At least we are honest.
Try it! |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2006 : 08:07:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
So what? The evolutionist will blow off the whole subject of origins of PM and life as insignificant and say "we don't know" and "we don't know",
Blow off the whole subject? I hardly think so. Admitting that we don't know something is far from blowing it off. I think the orgin of life is very interesting and is a vital question. The answer to that question will help us determine if life is common or not in the universe (for instance). I think you saying, "I know for sure where life came from" without a shred of evidence is actually blowing off the whole question of origins.
quote:
but when it comes to explaining the array of life and physical matter we see around us all of sudden they become empirical experts and insist that blind luck and chance "did it" and who cares about how the PM and/or life got here to begin with?
Evolution is not about blind luck and chance but of course throughout this discussion you have never tried to actually learn what the ToE is about. Empirical experts - interesting choice of words, yes there is empirical evidence to support ToE and there is no empirical evidence (that I know of) to determine the origin of life. So conjecture about the origin of life is just that conjecture.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2006 : 08:22:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
(bill) So enlighten us then great one. Teach us the art of valid discussion and explain to me your best hope on the origins of pm and life apart from an infinite creator. This is the basis for your entire worldview! I would hope you base your worldview off of more then "we don't know". After all the centuries of atheistic thought I would hope you would have at least some kind of basic hypothesis you could us walk through that you could hang your atheistic hat on at the end of the day.
Bill, you should sue your mother for dropping you on your head too many times.
The art of valid discussion can be found here and here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is the third time I've linked those, and you have yet to open them, and probably won't.
Your problem is the same as that of many if not most, if not all creationists. Everything must be black or white. All must be handed to you at once and en toto. Sadly, neither science nor life works that way, nor will it ever. "I don't know..." is a perfectly valid answer, especally if "...yet." is added. A wise man does not claim knowledge that he does not have. Only the intellectually impovershed, the fool, and the Republicans do that.
So, just for shits and giggles, let me ask you another few questions that you don't have to answer, just think about: Why, if all was created in all of it's bewildering diversity, zip-pop as it were, are there no fossils of reptiles found in Cambrian strata? Why are no mammals found in the Devonian? Why do we, unique among bipeds, have a quadraped's spine, to our detriment?
Was the creator coming off a celestial pub-crawl when he decided to have each abd every one of us born with a potential time bonb on the far end of our large intestine?
And why did this Cosmic Cretin make our jaws too small for the number of our teeth? Wisdom teeth! Yeesh!
Say Bill, did you know that the Archeoraptor fraud is still a very valuable fossil in that it was made from two previously undiscribed species?
'Tain't black and white at all, is it?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2006 : 08:43:24 [Permalink]
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If the "atheist" (remember this is a catch-all group) cannot give a definitive answer to the origin of life, then therfore god (Bill's version of god, remember, all other versions are wrong) did it.
If Bill cannot (or will not) give a definitive answer to any question, he will refer back to "god (my version of god, remember, all ofther versions are wrong) must have done it" as an answer.
Your logic is stupendous, untestable, and unfalsifiable.
Further "discussion" (if this is what we are calling this) is pointless. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2006 : 08:44:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Is this a good list or a bad list?
It's a Special High Intensity Training list.
EDIT: I missed the captials. I'm sorry if I offended you, I was being sarcastic in my post to Bill and did not really mean what I said about theists. Please PM me if you would like to discuss further. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 02/21/2006 10:59:39 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2006 : 08:45:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
...all of sudden they become empirical experts and insist that blind luck and chance "did it" ...
So after 236 posts here you are using this utterly stupid and false argument.
You are obviously not the sharpest tool in the box.quote:
This is not a contest for me. I seek to pursue and to know truth.
I'll guess this claim was a lie then.
What is wrong with "we don't know"? You don't know either. At least we are honest.
Try it!
What is wrong with "we don't know"? You don't know either. At least we are honest.
(bill) There is nothing wrong with "we don't know". But when the battle cry for atheistic theory becomes "we don't know, but we do know it was not god" that's when your position becomes laughable.
Yes we all know that atheistic theory currently has no idea how PM and life began to exist, but after all the years of confident bashing of anyone who even entertains the possibility of a creator as a dumbass and holding to unimaginative ideas I would have assumed that atheistic theory was on the verge of some great break through on the materialistic origins subject. Or at the bare minimum they might have at least a hypothesis to offer. But no, after chiding the creationist for holding a simpletons position they answer with "I don't know" and "I don't know" when presented with the same question.
So what hope do you have that origins of life and PM can be explained in materialistic explanations? You have at least a hypothesis to your worldview yes? Please share.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2006 : 09:00:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
But when the battle cry for atheistic theory becomes "we don't know, but we do know it was not god" that's when your position becomes laughable.
I have not heard about any atheistic theory or anyone who claims to know it was not god.
Do you have any references to who uses this "battle cry", or is this yet another example of creationist dishonesty?
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2006 : 09:23:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
If the "atheist" (remember this is a catch-all group) cannot give a definitive answer to the origin of life, then therfore god (Bill's version of god, remember, all other versions are wrong) did it.
If Bill cannot (or will not) give a definitive answer to any question, he will refer back to "god (my version of god, remember, all ofther versions are wrong) must have done it" as an answer.
Your logic is stupendous, untestable, and unfalsifiable.
Further "discussion" (if this is what we are calling this) is pointless.
If the "atheist" (remember this is a catch-all group) cannot give a definitive answer to the origin of life, then therfore god (Bill's version of god, remember, all other versions are wrong) did it.
(bill) Smoke and mirrors as I have never yet tried to define the God who created the universe. An atheist does not subscribe to a god or gods so I have no interest, at this point, in debating who God is if the atheist does not even except a god to begin with.
If Bill cannot (or will not) give a definitive answer to any question, he will refer back to "god (my version of god, remember, all ofther versions are wrong) must have done it" as an answer.
(bill) What's wrong P? You can not even come up with a good hypothesis on atheistic origins of PM and life, apart from the creator, that would make any kind of sense logically can you? Let alone a hypothesis that would even relate to reality in one iota. Let alone come up with 2 or 3 atheistic hypnosis that explain the origin of PM and life apart from an infinite creator. All those years of atheistic thought for not as they still have nothing.
Your logic is stupendous, untestable, and unfalsifiable.
(bill) I am still waiting to hear from your logic. Any word yet on the latest and greatest in atheistic theory on origins?
Further "discussion" (if this is what we are calling this) is pointless.
(bill) I bet you will never give me one atheistic theory on origins will you? You will end the discussion before you will attempt that feat...
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2006 : 09:25:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
But when the battle cry for atheistic theory becomes "we don't know, but we do know it was not god" that's when your position becomes laughable.
I have not heard about any atheistic theory or anyone who claims to know it was not god.
Do you have any references to who uses this "battle cry", or is this yet another example of creationist dishonesty?
(bill) What's wrong SM? You can not even come with a good hypothesis on atheistic origins of PM and life, apart from the creator, that would make any kind of sense logically can you? Let alone a hypothesis that would even relate to reality in one iota. Let alone come up with 2 or 3 atheistic hypnosis that explain the origin of PM and life apart from an infinite creator. All those years of atheistic thought for not as they still have nothing.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2006 : 10:07:11 [Permalink]
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Bill - there is no "atheistic" theory to the origins of life. There are scientific (but I forget this is the same to you, right?) theories. You can google search for them, I simply don't care enough to do the research for you. Maybe someone else will do it, but I'm not.
I know you won't do it yourself, and you will walk away from this with the smug satisfaction that you won this argument. Whatever helps you sleep at night. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2006 : 10:13:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
...but after all the years of confident bashing of anyone who even entertains the possibility of a creator as a dumbass and holding to unimaginative ideas I would have assumed that atheistic theory...
If anybody called you a dumbass it is probably not because of your religion it is probably because you profess to know what you are talking about in realation to the ToE when you don't have a clue as to what it actually adresses.
Belief in God is an act of faith. It does not mean a person is dumb or that they are unimaginative. I personally think theists have great imaginations. I am an atheist because I do not have faith. That doesn't mean I am dumb or you are dumb, it is simply a matter of faith (or lack thereof).
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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