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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
 Posted - 03/09/2006 : 13:13:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Forced abortions or forced sterilization are imposed beliefs on others.
Yes, (Wendy sighs a tired sigh) "forced" anything is imposing something on someone.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Outlawing abortion is no more imposing beliefs on others then it is to say outlawing murder is a forced belief imposed on the one who would commit a murder.
You are entitled to your opinion. I am tempted to repeat myself as to it all having to do with when life begins, but I would be wasting minutes of my own life I will never get back.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 13:16:57 [Permalink]
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Wendy:
quote:
I have three children and two step-children. I understand more than most the responsibility that comes with raising a child. It is, in my opinion, the biggest commitment a person can make. If a woman is unwilling or unable to make that commitment for whatever reason she should (again, in my opinion) have the right to terminate the pregnancy before it results in an unwanted child.
If you can't handle the responsibility, then maybe you should keep your pants on.
Exactly!
If you can't make the commitment, then keep your pants on.
Of course, this is pointless to pursue, because it all goes back to whether you believe the fertilized egg is a person or not.
With my premise - personhood begins at fertilization - if you can't handle the responsibility of raising a child, then you'd better not create a situation where killing it is the best option.
With your premise - personhood doesn't begin till some point later on - abortion is perfectly moral birth control.
So, I'll ask you, as I've asked Dude:
Why should you be able to impose your arbitary definition of life on an unborn child?
Because until that question is answered - we're debating with different premises. |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 13:19:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
If you can't make the commitment, then keep your pants on.
So you do not oppose abortion with respect to rape victims?
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 13:20:53 [Permalink]
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This is actually an interesting logical problem, as the party with whom the burden of proof lies is determined by with premise one starts with.
No wonder these debates never conclude. |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 13:23:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
This is actually an interesting logical problem, as the party with whom the burden of proof lies is determined by with premise one starts with.
No wonder these debates never conclude.
I'm sorry. Did I miss your answer to my question?
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 13:24:41 [Permalink]
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Wendy:
quote:
So you do not oppose abortion with respect to rape victims?
Invariably, this comes up. Sigh.
About .9% of the annual total of abortions are due to rape. It's such a small segment - I don't know why you all are so keen on bringing it up.
I will say - that is a very difficult situation, one I can't imagine having to deal with. But no matter how you cut it, I don't believe taking an innocent life is the answer.
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 13:26:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm sorry. Did I miss your answer to my question?
I'm sure you can see that we posted at nearly the same time.
From now on, I will always check to make sure no one else has posted in the 2 minutes it takes to write my post, before I hit the "Post new Reply" button.
Edit: spelling |
| Edited by - verso on 03/09/2006 13:27:37 |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 13:30:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
About .9% of the annual total of abortions are due to rape. It's such a small segment - I don't know why you all are so keen on bringing it up.
You brought it up when you suggested "keep your pants on" as a solution. The number would likely be much larger, but most rapes go unreported.
quote:
Originally posted by verso
I will say - that is a very difficult situation, one I can't imagine having to deal with. But no matter how you cut it, I don't believe taking an innocent life is the answer.
Thank you. Neither do I. We merely disagree as to when that life begins.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 13:45:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
From now on, I will always check to make sure no one else has posted in the 2 minutes it takes to write my post, before I hit the "Post new Reply" button.
As you wish, but what I'd appreciate more is if you would check your quotes. The post you made at 13:16:57 quotes me as having said "If you can't handle the responsibility, then maybe you should keep your pants on". An edit to remove the quote you incorrectly attributed to me would be in order. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 15:47:23 [Permalink]
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verso said:
quote:
Nope. See dude, that is true with your premise that a fertilized egg is not human. With our premise, the fertilized egg is a person, and therefore RvW does impose something on someone. It imposes death on a human.
RvW makes people have abortions?
Put down the crackpipe.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 16:36:52 [Permalink]
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Dude:
quote:
verso said:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope. See dude, that is true with your premise that a fertilized egg is not human. With our premise, the fertilized egg is a person, and therefore RvW does impose something on someone. It imposes death on a human.
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RvW makes people have abortions?
Put down the crackpipe.
Ahhh yes, enter the semantic games.
No, RvW does not "make people have abortions." RvW allows a person to impose death on another innocent person.
With my premise, legal abortion is legal homicide.
With my premise, if you argue that criminalizing abortion is unjustly forcing beliefs on someone, then you must also argue that criminalizing homicide is unjustly forcing beliefs on someone.
Bill hit that nail on the head:
quote:
Outlawing abortion is no more imposing beliefs on others then it is to say outlawing murder is a forced belief imposed on the one who would commit a murder.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 17:14:45 [Permalink]
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verso said:
quote:
No, RvW does not "make people have abortions." RvW allows a person to impose death on another innocent person.
With my premise, legal abortion is legal homicide.
And we are right back to my first question to you, which you have yet to answer. (your refusal to even try to answer is noted, again)
Define human life, define where it begins, and rationally explain why your position is non-arbitrary. In order to impose restrictions on the rights of other people(in this case a woman's right to determine the use to which her own body is put), and have anyone other than your fellow religiously insane on your side, you must be able to make that argument.
In order to provide you with some perspective on just where overall opinion is on abortion:
http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm
Even the FOX poll has pro-choice as the majority.
The reason why the big majority favor abortion rights for women is because nobody on your side can answer the question I have asked of you.
You could swing public opinion and gather a concensus on this issue if you had a rational answer. Instead all you have is your repetition of your arbitrary opinion and your assertion that you are right.
quote:
With my premise, if you argue that criminalizing abortion is unjustly forcing beliefs on someone, then you must also argue that criminalizing homicide is unjustly forcing beliefs on someone.
No. Again, because you can't rationally defend your position beyond childishly repeating your arbitrary opinion and asserting that you are right.
You have to give us a rational reason why we should accept your premise before your analogy is anything but a ridiculous straw-man.
quote:
Bill hit that nail on the head:
The only thing Bill has hit on the head is himself.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 18:10:41 [Permalink]
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verso wrote: quote:
With my premise - personhood begins at fertilization - if you can't handle the responsibility of raising a child, then you'd better not create a situation where killing it is the best option.
So are you admitting that abortion is the best option in such a situation? Because, let's face it, even if we made premarital sex illegal, unwanted pregnancies would still be rampant.
Also, your “keep your pants on” line is so impractical and arcane. Think about it – married people don't always want kids/more kids. I'm married, we don't want a kid, and if I got pregnant, I'd get an abortion. It is absurd to expect all adults who do not want children to simply refrain from having sex.
quote:
With your premise - personhood doesn't begin till some point later on - abortion is perfectly moral birth control.
So, I'll ask you, as I've asked Dude:
Why should you be able to impose your arbitary definition of life on an unborn child?
Because an unborn child is a parasite on the mother, therefore the mother's right must also be taken into consideration. Since there is nothing ambiguous about her personhood, and since our society gives people rights over what happens to their body, her unambiguously-based rights trump the unborn's.
quote:
About .9% of the annual total of abortions are due to rape. It's such a small segment - I don't know why you all are so keen on bringing it up.
The vast majority of abortions are done in the first trimester – before the embryo's senses or brain functions have started functioning. And less than 1% are done in the third semester (and seeing as over 30 states have third trimester bans, most of those 1% abortions are probably being done to save the mother from death or permanent injury) I don't know why pro-lifers are so keen on waving around partial-birth abortion photos.
quote:
I will say - that is a very difficult situation, one I can't imagine having to deal with. But no matter how you cut it, I don't believe taking an innocent life is the answer.
If you truly marked full personhood at conception, you would not hesitate at this question. Obviously even you are viewing a embryo differently than a newborn baby.
Why is it so unreasonable to put the line in the grey area. Given the biology of a zygote and embryo, and even a young fetus, doesn't conception seem like a silly place to mark the beginning of personhood?
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 18:32:53 [Permalink]
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Dude:
Can you respond to this post of mine? Why is my reponse arbitray? It does not fit the definition I sourced.
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Dude Wrote:[quote]Not arbitrary? You are just pure comedy. Your protestation that is isn't arbitrary doesn't make it so Robb.
I think my reasoning fits with the definition I gave for arbitrary that you did not quote with your comments. Why don't you state why my reasoning does not fit with the definition I gave for arbitrary? Then we can have a discussion.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 18:34:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
(bill) What evidence (regarding evolution - my clarification)? The fossil record is an embarrassment to the macro crowd. The theories on speculative natural selection mechanics push the limits of probability to the breaking point. Not to mention they have no idea how the matter became life to begin with or where the matter even came from...
How dare these evolutionists claim that they have an explanation for the diversity of life when they don't even know where matter came from. It's just as stupid as claiming to be able to explain how carbohydrates are metabolised in your intestines when you don't know where your great-great-grandmother came from.
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
| Edited by - Hawks on 03/09/2006 20:08:39 |
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