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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 04/10/2006 : 12:58:36 [Permalink]
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V.D. says:
quote:
Art. 99. No prisoner of war may be tried or sentenced for an act which is not forbidden by the law of the Detaining Power or by international law, in force at the time the said act was committed. -- Geneva Convention of 1949
Right. Attacking other countries is a violation of international law. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/10/2006 13:00:26 |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 13:25:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I didn't say anything about absolving Saddam.
No you didn't. So I take it then that you agree that Saddam shoulders the lions share of the blame? It seemed like you were trying to lay all the blame on the US.
quote:
If it were up to you, what would you have done all those years ago when the U.S. invaded Yugoslavia, Panama, Haiti, Mexico....
What does that have to do with your claims of genocide in Iraq? I am getting the distinct impression that you are trying to baffle me with bullshit here. If, as you claim, the US acted wrongly in response to Iraq invading Kuwait then what should the US have done instead.
Should they have:
a. done nothing
b. passed a resolution condemming Iraq
c. invaded some random country
d. unconditionally surrendered
e. tricked Canada into going
f. nuked Panama
I kid, but seriously it was a situation that had to be dealt with. It's easy to critisize and the US surely made a lot of mistakes but really overall the US did the right thing at the time, didn't they? If not what should they have done instead? It's a reasonable question. Do you have an answer or not? |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 13:39:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It is a legal order to illegally attack another country. By declaring war, Bush made any order to invade Iraq legal. The international community may yet hold Bush accountable for his illegal declaration of war, but never the troops. The troops are held blameless under the Geneva Convention as long as they did not commit overt criminal actions as outlined in the Geneva Convention and the UCMJ.
http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/geneva/history.html
From what I can see, Valiant, this link has nothing to back up what you're saying here. Can you help me with this?
[/quote]
Absolutely.
Under the heading "International Rules about soldiers" and the heading "International Rules about Civilians".
And if you follow the links to the conventions themselves, Convention IV in it's entirety deals with the proper treatment of civilians and what constitutes a war crime. Convention III covers military personnel.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 13:42:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
V.D. says:
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Whatever, Gorgo.
If that's what you got from that, fine.
You need to be right for this one, so I give. Chomski is God. The US is inherently evil and all soldiers fighting in wars you don't approve of should be criminals. To hell with international law unless it suits you.
Feel better now?
Chomski? What the hell does Chomsky have to do with anything? Is this more of your expert opinion? Evil? Where is anything that backs up what you say?
[/quote]
How nice of you to take this out of context. How telling that you did not reference my reply.
Again, I note a lack of evidence presented by you. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 14:20:06 [Permalink]
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| I didn't mention Chomsky, or Chomski. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 16:43:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
What does that have to do with your claims of genocide in Iraq? I am getting the distinct impression that you are trying to baffle me with bullshit here. If, as you claim, the US acted wrongly in response to Iraq invading Kuwait then what should the US have done instead.
Should they have:
a. done nothing
b. passed a resolution condemming Iraq
c. invaded some random country
d. unconditionally surrendered
e. tricked Canada into going
f. nuked Panama
What should Saddam have done when the U.S. invaded Panama, Haiti, Yugoslavia or Afghanistan? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/10/2006 16:43:53 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 18:39:09 [Permalink]
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I don't know that they should. There is no support system for that.
Most of you miss my point, and it's not your "fault." |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 19:00:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo...
Most of you miss my point, and it's not your "fault."
Well no kidding. It's your fault. First, you are a rather poor communicator, apparently not especially capable of expressing your thoughts in a clear, understandable fashion. Then when we ask for clarification, you refuse to answer our questions, and instead turn it around into more questions directed at us. As long as you continue to communicate so poorly, refusing to even make your point, we will undoubtedly continue to miss your point.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 19:43:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I see by your example how we are to behave here. We don't discuss things, we don't tell people they're being rude, we just tell them to get fucked. I understand.
Ah, you're just forgetting all the times that I did try to have discussions with Snake and/or tell her that she was being rude (she's not interested in any of that). You'll just take a post from the pinnacle of my frustration with her and rashly generalize it into a overall rule of forum behaviour. I understand.quote:
Blame implies punishment.
Well, that's a new meaning for the word "blame" I'd never heard before. I certainly blame the kid who stole my watch when I was 11 for stealing my watch, but he was never punished for it.quote:
Fault implies some kind of character weakness.
No, it only suggests an imperfection. As applied to law, it implies an imperfect following of the law, which isn't a judgement on whether or not breaking that law was an act of moral good or not.quote:
I'm not judging anyone.
You judged both Clinton and Bush to be criminals.quote:
I'm just saying that the law seems to say that soldiers have a duty to disobey illegal orders.
And your interpretation of the law is what's in dispute here, and in the previous thread (where you seemed to take such criticism personally).quote:
In the same way you don't generally see me calling Bush a scumbag. I try not to make those kinds of judgments. He has clearly broken the law (in my mind of course) and that makes him a criminal.
And because he's broken the law in your mind, your judgement of him as a criminal is nothing more than your opinion based on how you read the laws. I think he's a criminal, as well, but that has nothing to do with whether or not the troops have a duty to disobey orders to go to war.quote:
I think we need to stop putting criminals into office. That's not an emotional judgment, that's stating the facts as I see them.
Oh, by "judgement" above, I should have read "emotional judgement?" I don't see that there's much difference in this case. You, Gorgo, appear to have a heavy emotional investment in this discussion. And since everyone sees the facts through a veil of biases, it's not unreasonable to think that your interpretation of the law regarding the troops is heavily influenced by your obvious passion for these subjects. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 21:54:49 [Permalink]
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Having just browsed throught the last two pages (I skipped the first two because most of it looked like a rehash of the last thread about this subect).
This jumped out in my face:
quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I didn't say anything about absolving Saddam.
No you didn't. So I take it then that you agree that Saddam shoulders the lions share of the blame? It seemed like you were trying to lay all the blame on the US.
This looks to me like a false dichotomy.
Saddam deserves everything it seems he'll be getting (considering where his trial is going). He'll get his lion's share.
George W Bush deserves the same fate as Saddam, he should get another lion's share.
None of the blame one of them is recieveing should make the other one's blame any less.  |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 23:33:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
This jumped out in my face:
quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I didn't say anything about absolving Saddam.
No you didn't. So I take it then that you agree that Saddam shoulders the lions share of the blame? It seemed like you were trying to lay all the blame on the US.
This looks to me like a false dichotomy.
Saddam deserves everything it seems he'll be getting (considering where his trial is going). He'll get his lion's share.
George W Bush deserves the same fate as Saddam, he should get another lion's share.
None of the blame one of them is recieveing should make the other one's blame any less.
You're right of course. Don't let Bush jr. off the hook either. Pehaps it was poor phrasing on my part. But clearly Saddam deserves most of the blame for atrocities in Iraq. Remember we're talking about the situation since Kuwait and not the situation since George W. took office. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 04:57:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Ah, you're just forgetting all the times that I did try to have discussions with Snake and/or tell her that she was being rude (she's not interested in any of that). You'll just take a post from the pinnacle of my frustration with her and rashly generalize it into a overall rule of forum behaviour. I understand.
So, you're apologizing now for your rash behavior. Good man.
quote:
Well, that's a new meaning for the word "blame" I'd never heard before. I certainly blame the kid who stole my watch when I was 11 for stealing my watch, but he was never punished for it.<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Fault implies some kind of character weakness.
Then you're happy with the situation. Blame implies a desire for punishment. You're right, fault is about responsibility.
quote:
synonyms: blame, fault, guilt
These nouns denote a sense of responsibility for an offense. Blame stresses censure or punishment for a lapse or misdeed for which one is held accountable: The police laid the blame for the accident on the driver. Fault is culpability for wrongdoing or failure: It is my own fault that I wasn't prepared for the exam. Guilt applies to willful wrongdoing and stresses moral culpability: The prosecution had evidence of the defendant's guilt. See also synonyms at criticize
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 05:32:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
So, you're apologizing now for your rash behavior. Good man.
It wasn't at all rash. I spent a lot of time thinking about that post. No apology was implied, I was explaining to you how GeeMack's comments differed from Snake's. If you're going to emulate my posting style, you need to be better informed of how I make my choices.quote:
Then you're happy with the situation.
When did I ever state or imply that I was happy about my watch being stolen?quote:
Blame implies a desire for punishment.
Do you really have no desire to see Bush (and Clinton, and whomever else) punished for their crimes, even if that punishment is nothing more than an early removal from office (just for Bush, of course)?quote:
You're right, fault is about responsibility.
So who is at fault for U.S. soldiers going to war? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 05:49:36 [Permalink]
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I'm not interested in fault or blame, nor am I interested in punishment.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Topic Locked
