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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 04/11/2006 : 06:18:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I'm not interested in fault or blame, nor am I interested in punishment.
Then whether or not a soldier has a duty to disobey illegal orders is moot, since morality concepts have everything to do with fault, blame and consequences. Your assertion that Bush and Clinton are criminals has become entirely meaningless. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 06:38:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Then whether or not a soldier has a duty to disobey illegal orders is moot, since morality concepts have everything to do with fault, blame and consequences. Your assertion that Bush and Clinton are criminals has become entirely meaningless.
I'm only interested in trying to figure out the best way to conduct ourselves. George Bush is a criminal by the standards he lays out for everyone else. This particular discussion is whether or not soldiers who work for terrorists like George Bush are different from the terrorists that George Bush says he wants to eliminate. He has no problem with calling them 'evil,' yet those who terrorize and murder others in his name are honorable.
Punishment, fault, blame, those things are useless. The responsibility for finding out what's happening and what to do about it lies with us. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/11/2006 06:39:20 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 07:15:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">He has no problem with calling them 'evil,' yet those who terrorize and murder others in his name are honorable.
Because our soldiers don't, or rather aren't supposed to, go after women, children, unarmed men, and just civilians in general. They only go after military targets.
How can you not see the difference?
And you don't think they do?
Let's assume for a moment that they do not. I'll say it again. If you rob a liquor store, you are held responsible if anyone inside that liquor store dies of a heart attack, or is accidentally shot by your gun. If you go into that liquor store in some way that you know someone is going to die before you go into it, you are probably going to be charged with murder. If you illegally attack another country, again, systematically destroying the infrastructure and economy and killing thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people over a period of several years, you are labeled a hero. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/11/2006 07:16:00 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 07:55:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gorgo...
Most of you miss my point, and it's not your "fault."Well no kidding. It's your fault. First, you are a rather poor communicator, apparently not especially capable of expressing your thoughts in a clear, understandable fashion. Then when we ask for clarification, you refuse to answer our questions, and instead turn it around into more questions directed at us. As long as you continue to communicate so poorly, refusing to even make your point, we will undoubtedly continue to miss your point.
You don't understand something, so therefore someone else is a poor communicator. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/11/2006 08:54:50 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 08:49:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">He has no problem with calling them 'evil,' yet those who terrorize and murder others in his name are honorable.
Because our soldiers don't, or rather aren't supposed to, go after women, children, unarmed men, and just civilians in general. They only go after military targets.
How can you not see the difference?
And you don't think they do?
Let's assume for a moment that they do not. I'll say it again. If you rob a liquor store, you are held responsible if anyone inside that liquor store dies of a heart attack, or is accidentally shot by your gun. If you go into that liquor store in some way that you know someone is going to die before you go into it, you are probably going to be charged with murder. If you illegally attack another country, again, systematically destroying the infrastructure and economy and killing thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people over a period of several years, you are labeled a hero.
I will say that the great majority do not. There are always exceptions in war time which are sometimes not prosecuted. But the exceptions usually revolve around proximity to a valid military target.
Here is the severe problem with your false analogy. In the case of the armed robber, the armed robber is acting on his/her own autonomy. The armed robber has made a consious choice to perform an illegal act of robbery. The law is written that if someone shuffles off this mortal coil during the commission of the crime, you're gonna fry.
A soldier engaged in a war is acting on someone else's autonomy and as long as thier actions do not violate the Geneva Convention, they are not held responsible for the invasion.
The Geneva Convention is pretty clear on the distintion between combatants and non-combatants. Now if a combatant robs a bank during the invasion and someone dies, then they would be liable for murder. If they are engaging enemy forces and blow stuff the fuck up, they are not responsible for civilian deaths due to the severing of supply lines, fragmentation of ordinance/target, or malfunctioning ordinance.
The law, and in particular international law, treats militaries and civilians differently. I regret that you have consistantly failed to grasp that concept. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 04/11/2006 08:50:33 |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 08:55:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
If you rob a liquor store, you are held responsible if anyone inside that liquor store dies of a heart attack, or is accidentally shot by your gun. If you go into that liquor store in some way that you know someone is going to die before you go into it, you are probably going to be charged with murder. If you illegally attack another country, again, systematically destroying the infrastructure and economy and killing thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people over a period of several years, you are labeled a hero.
If you commit a crime and someone dies as a result then you will be held criminally accountable. If you do something that is not a crime and someone dies as a result then you are not held criminally responsible. The soldiers who do not commit crimes are not held criminally resposible even if people die as a result of their actions. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 08:58:31 [Permalink]
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| Well, again, you may be right. That's why we're discussing this. I'll have to take some time to read what you've posted again. I haven't found anything relevant yet, but that's probably because I haven't read every word. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 09:18:02 [Permalink]
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| Nope, Valiant, I see nothing which even remotely addresses the information that I've brought to you from experts in the field. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 09:34:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Nope, Valiant, I see nothing which even remotely addresses the information that I've brought to you from experts in the field.
Keep ignoring the Geneva Convention, Gorgo. Your position depends on it. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 09:41:55 [Permalink]
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[/quote]
Keep ignoring the Geneva Convention, Gorgo. Your position depends on it.
[/quote]
Again, if you have something relevant to the discussion to add, please do. You seem like someone else here who posts long articles which have nothing to do with anything. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 10:41:50 [Permalink]
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I'm not a lawyer, so I can only speculate, but it would seem that a crime had been committed. Mitigating circumstances would be considered, however, and our hero would probably not be prosecuted, or if prosecuted, would get no punishment.
Again, just because no one is prosecuted doesn't mean that a crime wasn't committed. Happens every day. Lots of crimes go unreported or unprosecuted. Doesn't mean a crime didn't occur. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/11/2006 10:43:05 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 10:54:53 [Permalink]
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Again, what you seem to be saying on one hand is that a soldier cannot be expected to understand the law, and a soldier does not have free will, but on the other hand, they'd better know certain laws and they'd better exercise their vast free will at those times when those certain laws are to be broken. I'm not sure why I should buy that.
But it's not necessary to buy that. I'm not advocating anything here, just looking at the situation. Do we want to be the kind of society where one person or a small group of people can create the kind of terrorism that the present administration creates while we applaud those who follow him? If so, why? If not, how can we change that and be more supportive of people who wish to create a peaceful society? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 12:09:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
Do we want to be the kind of society where one person or a small group of people can create the kind of terrorism that the present administration creates while we applaud those who follow him? If so, why?
Maybe it would help if you saw the troops as victims of our bad foreign policy. We would have preferred to keep them home and safe. And now, we would like to bring them home and out of harms way. There is nothing wrong with applauding their patriotism and their courage. Well over two thousand of them have been killed and many more injured. Their blood really is on the hands of “that small group of people”. Most are not breaking any laws. They are simply doing the job they signed up to do.
As an active protester of the Viet Nam war, one very disgraceful thing we did was to treat returning troops as our enemy. As if the trauma that they had been through wasn't enough, they came home to a thankless country. The very same people we were trying to save got treated like shit. Our hypocrisy was obvious, even if it took us awhile to figure it out. We saw ourselves as patriots, and I think that we were, but we missed the fact that these guys were patriots too. And while we were at most dodging belly clubs and a bit of jail time perhaps, those guys were dodging bullets, or worse.
If you can't work this out Gorgo I don't know what I can say to help you understand…
quote:
Gorgo:
If not, how can we change that and be more supportive of people who wish to create a peaceful society?
Sigh… By supporting those who wish to create a peaceful society? By being active? By doing all that you can do?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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