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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 04/12/2006 : 05:05:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Was it your intent to start a meaningless thread, evade questions about its possible meanings, and then fling insults at the people who tried to respond anyway, just because they had the nerve to respond?
Yes, as most threads go, it is a meaningless thread. It's just a discussion, as I've said from the beginning. I have attempted to answer all the questions that I have time for and that seemed relevant. Sorry if I didn't get your question answered. I didn't get all mine answered, either.
Who have I insulted? Let me know, and I'll apologize right away.
In fact, I'll apologize now. If I insulted you at all, it was probably because I was stupid enough in the heat of the moment to think you were attacking me. I know better, and I know I can learn from my actions. I apologize. As someone else said, I can get much more insulting, but I didn't, so sometimes I think that's enough. It probably isn't.
As far as the meaning of the words you talk about, you're right. We do need to make certain kinds of judgments. Other kinds are unnecessary. We can play word games all day. For instance, I refrain from using the word 'believe' if possible. It's a simple word, but I just don't want to use it. I'd rather think than believe. Other people use it to mean very rational things, and that's all right. That's just me. Sorry I wasn't clearer.
As to the rest, I understand what you're saying about international law and soldiers. There is still something about the whole thing that I can't quite put my finger on, but maybe it will come to me later.
Yes, George Bush is a terrorist. He doesn't get to be called anything other than what he calls others who do the same thing. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 06:13:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Gorgo said:
quote:
Why are gang members or other kinds of terrorists different than people that work for terrorists like George Bush?
Terrorists and gang members are not empowered by a recognized government, not acting within the legal authority of any government.
Your characterization of Bush as a terrorist is a premise you are not going to be granted here. Like it or not he is the elected leader (elected once anyway) of the US.
You have not even come close to presenting a compelling argument that concludes the US invasion of Iraq was illegal.
The actions of the individual soldiers, as you have been told a dozen fucking times, are governed by the laws of land warfare and the Geneva Conventions.
A sure fire way for a soldier to break the law and end up in prison (possibly for a capital offense, cowardice under fire or treason) is to disobey the order to mobilize and fight. At a minimum they will be arrested, tried, and be dishonorably discharged after they serve a prison sentence, if found guilty. Desertion under fire can see you in front of a firing squad.
quote:
If this were any other subject, you'd be asking for facts to back up what is being said. Show me facts to back up what you say. Citations?
Go read the Laws of Land Warfare, you can google it up easily. Then go read the Geneva Conventions. Those documents will provide you with the guidelines for soldiers to determine if an order is legal or illegal.
Under no circumstances can a soldier refuse an order to mobilize or to fight, regardless of the legality of the overall war. What part of that do you not comprehend? The reference for that one is the UCMJ. (Uniform Code of Military Justice) The set of laws that our military lives under, in addition to the civil laws of the USA and whatever country they happen to be serving in.
Get it through your thick head man.... soldiers cannot disobey an order to fight, without breaking a law. The only orders they have a reponsibility to judge the legality of are orders that pertain to their specific personal conduct while fighting.
You're wasting breath, Dude. Direct links to the Geneva Convention were supplied to Gorgo and he claims they are unrelated to his contention.
The almighty Gorgo has deemed that the Geneva Convention is not relevant in warfare.
So let it be written, so let it be done. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 06:20:04 [Permalink]
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| So mote it be. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2006 : 06:40:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Terrorists and gang members are not empowered by a recognized government, not acting within the legal authority of any government.
By the way, the answer to the question is size. If it's a big gang that murders a lot of people, that's a good thing. If it's a small gang that doesn't do much damage, that's not a good thing. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2006 : 08:10:57 [Permalink]
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| Have some respect for street thugs. Again, you miss the point. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2006 : 09:27:46 [Permalink]
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| Quit looking for ways to be pissed off and look at the words on the page. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2006 : 09:43:20 [Permalink]
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You keep pretending that this war is so obviously illegal that any person with an IQ over 70 would see it. But that just isn't the case. It's a complex issue, one that has many faces and many different possible motives or rather reasons for it. You just like to sweep this all under the rug and declare it illegal.
The majority of American people voted for this president, and as our elected official, part of his job to control what the military does. If he orders the military to do an illegal activity, it is the soldiers duty to not follow that order.
But invading a country isn't always an illegal act. Before invading Iraq, Bush made the case that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. He showed that Saddam has murdered in the past and would most likely not be hesitant of doing so in the future.
As it turns out, most, if not all, of this was wrong. But did our soldiers know that at the time? Absolutely not. So they thought the war was legal when we invaded. They thought our country, our citizens, were in trouble when they invaded. They thought our lives were in danger. So they went and stepped in front of the bullet for us. They died for us to save us from possible terrorist attacks. Or at least they think they did.
And you're going to call them gangsters for this? |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2006 : 09:55:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
And you're going to call them gangsters for this?
I'm not calling them anything. What I said was is that the difference is size. Murder is fine, as long as you can talk about elected officials and the eternal battle between good and evil.
All the lies and nonsense aside, no one that cares at all about what was happening thought that Iraq had launched any kind of "imminent threat." Removing an imminent threat is the only thing that is allowed under the UN Charter. Attacking defenseless countries is the worst kind of crime, according to the verdicts at Nuremberg.
There is no doubt that Bush and bin Laden and Saddam Hussein are on the same level mentally. The only difference is size and wealth. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2006 : 09:57:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
By the way, the answer to the question is size. If it's a big gang that murders a lot of people, that's a good thing. If it's a small gang that doesn't do much damage, that's not a good thing.
So your theory is that the armed forces are given legitimacy due to their size? Um... how do you figure?
If a country has only a small military force is it legit? Are the Hells Angels not a criminal organization since they're getting pretty big?
The answer to the question is plainly not 'size' Gorgo. The US military doesn't gain or lose legitimacy based on how 'big' it is at any given moment. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2006 : 10:08:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
If a country has only a small military force is it legit? Are the Hells Angels not a criminal organization since they're getting pretty big?
If they're big enough to "get away" with their crimes, what's the difference? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2006 : 10:14:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
If a country has only a small military force is it legit?
If they're sanctioned as having a legitimate standing by the larger syndicate, in the sense that I think your question is framed.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2006 : 10:31:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
If they're big enough to "get away" with their crimes, what's the difference?
If someone is "sneaky enough" to get away with their crimes does that mean that their crimes don't exist? No, of course not, it just means that they escape the consequences of their actions. It doesn't make them legit.
In the same way if a country is big enough to get away with its crimes then it probably will. But that doesn't make it 'right' or a 'good' thing.
In practical terms, since the US is a democracy, committing actions that are considered illegal, foolish, or against broad American interests will eventually get the government kicked out of office. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2006 : 10:37:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
If someone is "sneaky enough" to get away with their crimes does that mean that their crimes don't exist? No, of course not, it just means that they escape the consequences of their actions. It doesn't make them legit.
In the same way if a country is big enough to get away with its crimes then it probably will. But that doesn't make it 'right' or a 'good' thing.
In practical terms, since the US is a democracy, committing actions that are considered illegal, foolish, or against broad American interests will eventually get the government kicked out of office.
Now, you're getting the point. Just because they have the wealth to buy the P.R. and because they're large, does not make them legit. In fact, if they have laws that are on their side because of their size and wealth, that does not make them very legit either. They are legit only because someone with power thinks they are. They may be just as destructive as anyone else, but they "get away" with it.
The same is true for street thugs and so-called terrorists. They may have fewer choices to do what they do than anyone else, but because they're poor, and they don't have good P.R., they're the subject of scorn. "They deserve to be punished," we say, as though that means something, or as though their abject poverty or their lack of education have nothing to do with their violence. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2006 : 11:11:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Now, you're getting the point. Just because they have the wealth to buy the P.R. and because they're large, does not make them legit. In fact, if they have laws that are on their side because of their size and wealth, that does not make them very legit either.
Right, these things may give the 'appearance' of legitimacy but are not in fact the source of it.
quote:
They are legit only because someone with power thinks they are.
Disagree here. In the case of a democracy legitimacy is granted by the electorate.quote:
They may be just as destructive as anyone else, but they "get away" with it.
Again, in the case of a democracy they are limited in what they can get away with.quote:
The same is true for street thugs and so-called terrorists. They may have fewer choices to do what they do than anyone else, but because they're poor, and they don't have good P.R., they're the subject of scorn. "They deserve to be punished," we say, as though that means something, or as though their abject poverty or their lack of education have nothing to do with their violence.
They 'deserve' to be punished because their actions are destabilising to society. Whether the they had any real choice in bringing down the towers or blowing themselves up and thus truly 'deserve' punishment is another matter, but they must be dealt with in any case.
The US does have much to answer for in their treatment of so called detainees. In many cases it appears that the US is breaking its own laws or taking extraordinary measures to avoid its own jurisdiction.
Notice however that much pressure is being brought to bear on the government to change these abusive policies, by its own media and populace no less. In a dictatorship these kind of checks are severely limited. |
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