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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 04/18/2006 : 03:09:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
But religious beliefs that do not contradict with the natural world are not dangerous at all. If you think they are, please explain and give examples.
Depends on your definition of religion. Religion is where you believe in a god that runs the univetrse. What you are talking about range from atheists that still mouth the idea that there are supernatural forces somewhere that don't really affect the universe in any way and can't be contacted by humans in any way to people who expect god to come into their lives to heal them of diseases and put their food on the table.
Yes, there are a range of beliefs. So what? If you believe nonsense, it's nonsense, whether it's religious nonsense or not. If your life is based on harmful nonsense, then that increases the likelihood that you're dangerous. So what? I fail to see your point. What is it you want me to do about fundamentalists? Do they do anything more stupid as a group than any other group? Are there more fundamentalists in prison? Are they the only ones that voted for George Bush? If they dropped off the face of the earth would poverty be eliminated and would the United States not be one of the largest terrorist nations that ever existed?
No. People have screwy ideas. Myself included. Do I wish people didn't need fundamentalism? Sure. I wish people didn't need all kinds of screwy ideas. What makes them special? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 04:00:51 [Permalink]
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Ask theists why they believe what they believe. They will adamantly tell you that certain fantasies must exist in order to give them worth, and to give life worth. When I question them it seems that they almost know that they manufactured these fantasies for that very purpose. They will tell you that they did not. But, if they are adults, they chose their religion. Even tailored it according to their ideas about themselves and their world. They thought about it and made it their own. Sure, most of them inherited a lot of their beliefs. We all did. Atheists certainly have some of those beliefs that life isn't worth very much. That we aren't worth very much.
That's the mental disorder part of it all. That's obviously not very medical or scientific, but it is based on years of questioning and observation. Imagine a world where most of the people don't think life or don't think that they themselves are worth very much.
Now, one does not have to have religion to think life is not worth very much, as I said. But religion is a thought structure based on that idea. Or just call it a belief in the supernatural rather than religion, as some who call themselves religious are really atheists. In fact, I would suspect that most are practically atheists. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 05:38:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by dglas
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
It is clear that beliefs which conflict with the natural world are dangerous. They have led to discrimination against women, racial minorities, gay, and peoples of other ethnicities. They have also led to pseudo-scientific practices that are often damaging to people.
But religious beliefs that do not contradict with the natural world are not dangerous at all. If you think they are, please explain and give examples.
The mind boggles....
I am not intrinsically evil, and neither are you. Hatred of humanity is dangerous. I don't need metaphysical band-aids to help alleviate guilt for sin I am not responsible for. And I sure don't need to be told that I somehow innately enjoy being "evil" - whatever that means. That hurting others is fun and I like it. Not buying.
My mortal life is not expendable because there is an afterlife and neither is yours. I don't need my non-existent soul saved - killing me is not better for me. I suspect you might think the same about yourself. Hey, while we're at it, let's refuse medical treatment (for ourselves and for children) on religious grounds. No harm there, right?
As Marf clearly states that beliefs which do not conflict with the natural world, this is a strawman argument. And the actions of extremists are not indicative of the majority of religious practioners. Nor do a majority of religious practioners believe their lives are expendable. In fact, the major religions texts forbid suicide and murder.
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Better yet, how about the belief (sometimes seen as a religious one) that because one will go to heaven (or some equivalent divine reward) for a violent act of faith, that the violent act itself is a righteous one. Therefore, it is Right to kill. I don't suppose Americans would have any experience with that one, eh?
Again, you are applying the dogma of a religious extremist minority to the majority. Hasty generalization, there.
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Not having an absolute moral authority does not make one an advocate of evil, lawlessness and crime. No, anything does not go without God. Never heard this one before? Slander, libel and defamation are not harmful?
As slander and libel are both classes of defamation and are classified under a broader heading of lies and lying is one of those universal bad things denounced by many religious texts, I'm not seeing your point. Also, the view that people sans gods are intrinsically evil is a radical evangelical fundamentalist position, not a universal religious position.
quote:
Refusing to affirm a dogmatic point does not necessarily mean denying that point. Doubt does not equal denial. Even our best skeptical thinkers can't seem to get over this bit of nonsense. This is about language and meaning - so pervasive, most don't even think to question it.
And failure to deny a dogmatic point which one does not affirm does not equal affirmation, either. Many mainstream religous folks don't deny the rantings of a sub-sect which holds beliefs that they do not.
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Absolutist moralities are inflexible, maladaptive and represent a determination to turn humans into cogs in a dogmatic machine, rather than seeing philosophies as tools for humans. In the face of the needs of the dogma, humans are expendible. Bull's-hit!
Absolutist moralities are held by radical evangelical fundamentalists, not by all religious people.
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Many beliefs about the nature of the human animal (and in all these cases neither verifiable nor refutable beacuse they often refer to "spiritual" or "soul" aspects presumed to exist) are incredibly harmful, even if just from the perspective of the person's concept of self. Often they involve jaundicing or distorting the attitudes of persons against others - oft times with tragic results.
And how does belief in a soul or spirituality constitute harm? Again, you attack the extremist views (which are harmful) but not the mainline religous views. Ones that advocate tolerance for others and peaceful co-existance.
quote:
Discriminatory practices against women (and, yes, even men sometimes), racial, ethnic or other groups or on the basis of sexual preference are not based on naturalistic claims, as you seem to think. They are based on attitudinal stances - the most extreme versions being matters of absolutist dogma and sometimes wrapped in "morality." Sometimes claims of fact, verified or not, are made in support or refutation, but claims of inferiority, superiority or innate wrongness have little to do with factual claims and are themselves non-verifiable/non-refutable.
Did you even read her response here? Clearly, she admonishes doctorine that is not naturalistic as a cause for discrimination, not claiming that such discrimination is naturalistic.
As with anything, extremism breeds violence and hatred. There are some aspects of religion which fulfills certian needs for the religious person. Most notably psychological needs for connectedness to the universe, mysticism, and ceremony. People who do not have these psychological needs tend to be athiest or become atheist. And contrary to Gorgo's contention, religion is not a means to impart self worth. It encompasses a moral code of conduct which determines self worth primarily. Just like the moral codes of atheists determines their self worth. That religious folks also may wish to have a conceptual figure who will love them unconditionally, is tangent to the moral code.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 05:47:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo's contention, religion is not a means to impart self worth. It encompasses a moral code of conduct which determines self worth primarily. Just like the moral codes of atheists determines their self worth. That religious folks also may wish to have a conceptual figure who will love them unconditionally, is tangent to the moral code.
No. Belief in the supernatural is a way to express the idea that life has no worth. Your idea of religion is just a matter of someone having a viewpoint, so I'll not use that word when I talk to you about belief in the supernatural.
My moral code does not give me worth. Something outside of you cannot give you worth. That's the point. Gods do not impart worth. My acting in a way that pleases someone else does not give me worth. Having self-worth, or more importantly, understanding that self-worth is itself a fiction, is what allows one to be moral at all. "Morality" based on getting self-worth from acting in a certain way is a dangerous kind of "morality". It's not a constructive type of morality, although it can seem to "keep the peace" in the same way that attacking other countries and putting poor people in prison seems to "keep the peace." |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 06:12:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Gorgo's contention, religion is not a means to impart self worth. It encompasses a moral code of conduct which determines self worth primarily. Just like the moral codes of atheists determines their self worth. That religious folks also may wish to have a conceptual figure who will love them unconditionally, is tangent to the moral code.
No. Belief in the supernatural is a way to express the idea that life has no worth. Your idea of religion is just a matter of someone having a viewpoint, so I'll not use that word when I talk to you about belief in the supernatural.
My moral code does not give me worth. Something outside of you cannot give you worth. That's the point. Gods do not impart worth. My acting in a way that pleases someone else does not give me worth. Having self-worth, or more importantly, understanding that self-worth is itself a fiction, is what allows one to be moral at all. "Morality" based on getting self-worth from acting in a certain way is a dangerous kind of "morality". It's not a constructive type of morality, although it can seem to "keep the peace" in the same way that attacking other countries and putting poor people in prison seems to "keep the peace."
[/quote]
No, Gorgo, belief in the supernatural is not a way to express life has no worth. As mainstream religions and my own religion stress the worth of life in general, your contention fails miserably. Extremists are the ones claiming that people who do not belive as they do have lives with no worth, not mainstream religion. My idea of religion is my own personal relationship with the devine. I recognize other people's relationship with the devine as the best path for them. I recognize that atheists have no psychological needs that are fulfilled by religion, so religion does not make sense for them to follow.
Your moral code gives you a set of behaviors which you expect yourself to adhere to. When you are not successful in adhering to the set of behaviors, your self worth suffers. When you are successful, your self worth is bolsters. Otherwise, why bother with having moral codes? Avoidance of pain and suffering due to violations of social norms only goes so far. As a moral code is internalized, how does this relying on external factors to determine self worth?
Again, you rashly generalize morality into all held beliefs on actions. You have turned a personal set of expectaions on behavior into ones inflicted on others. Morality in the sense I have used it, indicates a personal set of behaviors, not ones inflicted on others. I regret not being clearer about that. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 04/18/2006 06:12:31 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 06:16:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Not an attack per se. I am merely giving my opinion of their morals, ethics, and probable intelligence level. Laying philosophical crap literature on a child not your own is messing with someones family, and that is just not done, not at least with impunity. It is for the parents to decide this, whatever their bent might be.
If the evangelicals of any strip want to put forth their shit or tear someones shit down, that's fine. But they can damned well wait until they get into a church to do it.
100% agree. I would never talk to a child about Jesus without the permission of the parents. Unfortunately I do see christians targeting children like these atheists are doing to get to the parents. I think it is underminding the parents authority and should not be done. Our church does have events and programs specifically for children in the community but the parents know it is religiously based and know beforehand what will be talked about. Afterall, it is the parents responsibility not mine for the spiritual well being of thier children. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 06:43:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
No, Gorgo, belief in the supernatural is not a way to express life has no worth. As mainstream religions and my own religion stress the worth of life in general, your contention fails miserably.
You mean, as they purport to stress the worth of life in general once it meets certain criteria.
quote:
Extremists are the ones claiming that people who do not belive as they do have lives with no worth, not mainstream religion. My idea of religion is my own personal relationship with the devine. I recognize other people's relationship with the devine as the best path for them. I recognize that atheists have no psychological needs that are fulfilled by religion, so religion does not make sense for them to follow.
Your moral code gives you a set of behaviors which you expect yourself to adhere to. When you are not successful in adhering to the set of behaviors, your self worth suffers. When you are successful, your self worth is bolsters. Otherwise, why bother with having moral codes? Avoidance of pain and suffering due to violations of social norms only goes so far. As a moral code is internalized, how does this relying on external factors to determine self worth?
Again, you rashly generalize morality into all held beliefs on actions. You have turned a personal set of expectaions on behavior into ones inflicted on others. Morality in the sense I have used it, indicates a personal set of behaviors, not ones inflicted on others. I regret not being clearer about that.
No, it's I who have not been clear. A personal set of behaviors does not impart self-worth. That is the whole point. You think that your supernatural gives you worth. You start with the assumption that you're not worth very much, so you have to do certain things to get worth. Starting with the assumption that you're not worth much, and that life is not worth very much unless you add "the Divine" or afterlives, is the problem. You start with the belief that life isn't worth very much. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 07:26:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Not an attack per se. I am merely giving my opinion of their morals, ethics, and probable intelligence level. Laying philosophical crap literature on a child not your own is messing with someones family, and that is just not done, not at least with impunity. It is for the parents to decide this, whatever their bent might be.
If the evangelicals of any strip want to put forth their shit or tear someones shit down, that's fine. But they can damned well wait until they get into a church to do it.
100% agree. I would never talk to a child about Jesus without the permission of the parents. Unfortunately I do see christians targeting children like these atheists are doing to get to the parents. I think it is underminding the parents authority and should not be done. Our church does have events and programs specifically for children in the community but the parents know it is religiously based and know beforehand what will be talked about. Afterall, it is the parents responsibility not mine for the spiritual well being of thier children.
Indeed.
Both of my girls ended up more or less agnostic. When they were young, they had school friends that they occasionally went to church services with, and I encouraged this, even though I found out (to my utter horror) that they were taken to a couple of revivals! But I figure: how can someone, especially a child, make up their minds without seeing both sides of the coin, as it were? The questions they asked me, I answered as honestly as I could.
The difference is that they did all of this on their own with people I know and trust, and with my aquiesence. No one snuck around behind my back; no one tried to interfere with my family.
Heh, every once in a while, I tell them that "an agnostic is no more than an atheist who lacks the courage if his convictions."  And everybody has a lot of fun hollering at me. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 07:37:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
No, Gorgo, belief in the supernatural is not a way to express life has no worth. As mainstream religions and my own religion stress the worth of life in general, your contention fails miserably.
You mean, as they purport to stress the worth of life in general once it meets certain criteria.
Like breathing? Really, you shouldn't use extremists as representative samples for your contentions.
quote:
quote:
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Extremists are the ones claiming that people who do not belive as they do have lives with no worth, not mainstream religion. My idea of religion is my own personal relationship with the devine. I recognize other people's relationship with the devine as the best path for them. I recognize that atheists have no psychological needs that are fulfilled by religion, so religion does not make sense for them to follow.
Your moral code gives you a set of behaviors which you expect yourself to adhere to. When you are not successful in adhering to the set of behaviors, your self worth suffers. When you are successful, your self worth is bolsters. Otherwise, why bother with having moral codes? Avoidance of pain and suffering due to violations of social norms only goes so far. As a moral code is internalized, how does this relying on external factors to determine self worth?
Again, you rashly generalize morality into all held beliefs on actions. You have turned a personal set of expectaions on behavior into ones inflicted on others. Morality in the sense I have used it, indicates a personal set of behaviors, not ones inflicted on others. I regret not being clearer about that.
No, it's I who have not been clear. A personal set of behaviors does not impart self-worth. That is the whole point. You think that your supernatural gives you worth. You start with the assumption that you're not worth very much, so you have to do certain things to get worth. Starting with the assumption that you're not worth much, and that life is not worth very much unless you add "the Divine" or afterlives, is the problem. You start with the belief that life isn't worth very much.
No, Gorgo, your assertion is unsupported and unreasonable. I do not think that my supernatural gives me worth. The devine is there to help with personal growth that I decide I want to make. (psychological tool) The afterlife is a place where I am rejuvenated for the next go round. As according to my faith everyone goes there regardless of religious status, it is a conjecture on how the natural progression of events go throughout the Great Cycle of birth - life - death - and rebirth. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 04/18/2006 07:41:40 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 07:40:37 [Permalink]
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| You think you need this "growth" and "afterlife" in order to have worth, and in order to give life worth. You've said you need a certain moral code to give you worth. You have already agreed with me. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 07:43:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
You think you need this "growth" and "afterlife" in order to have worth, and in order to give life worth. You've said you need a certain moral code to give you worth. You have already agreed with me.
What drugs are you on and why aren't you sharing?
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 07:44:43 [Permalink]
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| Why do you believe in an afterlife or a Divine or a supernatural? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/18/2006 07:47:50 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 08:37:09 [Permalink]
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Robb said:
quote:
Afterall, it is the parents responsibility not mine for the spiritual well being of thier children.
As a parent myself, I totally agree. I do not want anyone discussing anything with my child unless they come through myself and/or her mom. Nor would I force my beliefs on someone else's children.
This is MY moral code: "do unto others..."
People who believe so strongly that they "KNOW" what is spiritual or moral truth that they have to force it on others need to check themselves, and this goes for both "sides." |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 04/18/2006 08:41:18 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 08:39:10 [Permalink]
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Filthy said:
quote:
Heh, every once in a while, I tell them that "an agnostic is no more than an atheist who lacks the courage if his convictions."
Too funny! |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 04/18/2006 08:39:29 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 08:53:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Why do you believe in an afterlife or a Divine or a supernatural?
The afterlife conjecturally answers a unknown based on a preconception of an eternal part of human consciousness.
The Devine is a psychological aid in self betterment.
The supernatural fulfills a psychological need I have for mysticism.
None of these are related to self worth. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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