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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 04/18/2006 : 09:13:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
The afterlife conjecturally answers a unknown based on a preconception of an eternal part of human consciousness.
The Devine is a psychological aid in self betterment.
The supernatural fulfills a psychological need I have for mysticism.
None of these are related to self worth.
I don't understand most of that. Conjecturally answers based on a preconception of what? What does this mean?
What is a psychological need for mysticism? Were you born with that? What happens if you don't get whatever mysticism is?
What is "The Devine" besides a town in Texas? Is it something that you think really exists, or is it just something you use for whatever "betterment" is?
How is "betterment" not related to someone's scale of worth? Better than what? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 11:17:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The afterlife conjecturally answers a unknown based on a preconception of an eternal part of human consciousness.
The Devine is a psychological aid in self betterment.
The supernatural fulfills a psychological need I have for mysticism.
None of these are related to self worth.
I don't understand most of that. Conjecturally answers based on a preconception of what? What does this mean?
I believe in the concept of a soul (eternal part of human consciousness). After death, it has to go somewhere. Therefore, an afterlife is required.
quote:
What is a psychological need for mysticism? Were you born with that? What happens if you don't get whatever mysticism is?
I believe I was born with it. If I didn't get the mysticism I was looking for in the Christian church, so I started looking at other religions which could fulfill that need. I didn't feel bad about myself. I did feel a little lost.
quote:
What is "The Devine" besides a town in Texas? Is it something that you think really exists, or is it just something you use for whatever "betterment" is?
How is "betterment" not related to someone's scale of worth? Better than what?
[/quote]
I believe that the devine exists. Betterment in this case refers to changing my own behavior to conform to my moral code. It sparks decisions on what I am not doing in accordance with my moral code. It is a helper, not some all pervading being. If I don't succeed, then I need to try harder. Changing behaviors is not a simple task as humans tend to slip back into comfortable behaviors. The approval of the deity is not the aim of the betterment, approval of myself is. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 11:29:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
The approval of the deity is not the aim of the betterment, approval of myself is.
Again, you keep saying that this doesn't have anything to do with worth, but you keep telling me it does. Why don't you approve of yourself? Why do you need to create these afterlives and souls and "The Devines" and "need for mysticisms?" Why isn't life good enough as it is? Why aren't you good enough as you are? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/18/2006 11:31:21 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 12:23:10 [Permalink]
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I'll have to read more of this thread later, it's getting very long.
Al Frankin played O'Reilly denying there is a war on Easter. Then Al played a program from 2 days earlier where O'Reilly said there was a war on Christmas and Easter.  |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 12:27:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The approval of the deity is not the aim of the betterment, approval of myself is.
Again, you keep saying that this doesn't have anything to do with worth, but you keep telling me it does. Why don't you approve of yourself? Why do you need to create these afterlives and souls and "The Devines" and "need for mysticisms?" Why isn't life good enough as it is? Why aren't you good enough as you are?
[/quote]
You have constructed an elaborate strawman.
As with any moral code, people will not always measure up to it exactly as they would like. True for atheists and theists alike. Both will try to change their behaviors to more closely match their held moral codes. This is not a matter of being good enough, rather seeking improvement to the level we already are and an acknowledgement of the human condition. I am plenty good enough as I am, but it doesn't mean that I don't want to analyze and tweak my moral code as more data becomes available or I revert back to behaviors I sought to eliminate before. Also, any setbacks I have with changing behavior is not due to mysticism, ceremony, or the devine. It is due to me being human and means I need to try harder to do it.
You don't have the psychological needs for mysticism or ceremony. I do. Since I have notions of an eternal portion of the human consciousness, the theological constructs that have been delineated are customary and usual. If you prefer, you can call it a bit of illogic that I allow myself to fulfill psychological needs. It isn't harmful to myself nor is it harmful to others as I do not inflict my religion on others nor do I bad mouth others who do not believe as I do.
I will, however, point out logical and doctorinal inconsistancies between behavior and held moral codes and conflicts between dogma and the religious text that someone adheres to. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 04/18/2006 12:28:12 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 12:29:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I'll have to read more of this thread later, it's getting very long.
Al Frankin played O'Reilly denying there is a war on Easter. Then Al played a program from 2 days earlier where O'Reilly said there was a war on Christmas and Easter.
The fund raising must have been successful. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 12:45:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
You have constructed an elaborate strawman.
I haven't made up anything. You say you have a psychological "need" for these ideas (not complete or worthwhile without them). You say that you need this mental structure that you've built to approve (worth) of yourself. You've said that you're "lost" (again, looking for something to give you, or life worth) without them.
I made none of it up. These are all your words. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 12:46:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I'll have to read more of this thread later, it's getting very long.
Oh, I would have thought that you of all people would have better things to do.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 13:00:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
It isn't harmful to myself nor is it harmful to others as I do
not inflict my religion on others nor do I bad mouth others who do not believe as I do.
As I said, this is not something for which I can claim scientific evidence, and our exchange is not a very good example. I'm trying to do this at work, and don't have time to do anything in depth.
I would not ask you to stop if you find pleasure in it and it harms no one.
However, I wonder how true it is that it does not harm you or others.
And if we do have a society where most people don't think very much of themselves or reality then I have to wonder whether people act from that world view in a completely constructive manner. It's my observation that everyone has these views to some extent, but religion makes these beliefs something to strive for, rather than something that one would rather lose if possible.
Again, it's all just silly speculation, isn't it? Just harmless, and it hurts no one. I'm really lost without it, and it makes me feel better about myself when I do it.  |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/18/2006 13:07:00 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 16:44:53 [Permalink]
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Valiant Dancer already wrote an excellent response to dglas, but I'll add my own anyway. dglas, your examples really fall short of disputing my point. First of all, you brashly summarize certain vague concepts (such as referring to “original sin” as being “we are all intrinsically evil” in a way that simplifies many theological beliefs in a derogatory way, and in a way that makes it sound like these concepts have a clear and obvious meaning and consequence, instead of being ultimately mysterious and needing interpretation. Few religious people would claim to fully understand all the theological concepts that they would claim to believe in. And that's no more ridiculous than me saying I believe in a completely naturalistic universe, even though I don't completely understand it.
Some of your examples are downright ridiculous when applied to all religious people:
quote:
Hatred of humanity is dangerous.
What religious group hates humanity? That is just an outright distortion.
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My mortal life is not expendable because there is an afterlife and neither is yours.
Christian missionaries and Jewish activists whose calling is to do charitable work abroad, or who fight against oppression abroad, would totally agree with you. So would religious social workers.
quote:
Better yet, how about the belief (sometimes seen as a religious one) that because one will go to heaven (or some equivalent divine reward) for a violent act of faith, that the violent act itself is a righteous one.
This sort of example tells my that you completely mistook what I've said in this discussion. This example would apply to people like abortion clinic bombers and Islamic suicide bombers. Both of those groups are driven by beliefs that contradict things that are obvious in nature. These are groups I've clearly said need criticizing. These are exactly the type of groups that need to be fought against. They bear no resemblance to Humanistic or liberal Christians, Reform or liberal Jews, who are the types of faiths I am defending.
I'm not going to deal with all of your examples, because I think I've already made my point. Things like “slander, libel and defamation” done in the name of religion are always based on beliefs that are irrational in regards to worldly facts. People who believe in “absolutist moralities” are denying the obvious fact that they are fallible, and since they have no more evidence than people of any other faith, coming up with a strict interpretation of objective morality is foolhardy, and trying to impose such a code is cruel. The fact that you and many other atheists can't see the difference between religious folks who are blinded by highly irrational righteousness and religious folks whose beliefs are harmless is what convinces me that if atheists were in the majority, or even if they were simply the people in power, religious folks would be persecuted just as harshly as religious authorities have persecuted other groups. Oh wait, we've already seen that in Russia and China.
quote:
Refusing to affirm a dogmatic point does not necessarily mean denying that point. Doubt does not equal denial.
Why should they deny their beliefs? Do you think pe |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 16:46:33 [Permalink]
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filthy wrote: quote:
Both of my girls ended up more or less agnostic. When they were young, they had school friends that they occasionally went to church services with, and I encouraged this, even though I found out (to my utter horror) that they were taken to a couple of revivals! But I figure: how can someone, especially a child, make up their minds without seeing both sides of the coin, as it were? The questions they asked me, I answered as honestly as I could.
You probably did the best thing – I know sooo many more fanatic atheist types who now have fundamentalist Christian children. Ex: Madelyn Murray O'Hair.
One of my friends is agnostic and her husband is sort of a general spiritualist with no clearly defined theology. They have a baby daughter and have decided to take her to the same liberal Episcopal church the mom attended as a child. That makes sense to me. quote:
Heh, every once in a while, I tell them that "an agnostic is no more than an atheist who lacks the courage if his convictions." And everybody has a lot of fun hollering at me.
I know yer just teasing, but personally I think it takes more courage of conviction to be an agnostic. It's brave to live with the most ultimate kind of uncertainty.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 16:47:37 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: quote:
You start with the assumption that you're not worth very much, so you have to do certain things to get worth. Starting with the assumption that you're not worth much, and that life is not worth very much unless you add "the Divine" or afterlives, is the problem.
and quote:
You think you need this "growth" and "afterlife" in order to have worth, and in order to give life worth. You've said you need a certain moral code to give you worth. You have already agreed with me.
Val never said he starts with the assumption that he isn't worth very much. You have put so many words in his mouth! Think of it this way: my life has the worth that I give it. When more people know, love, and value me, the worth of my life increases. Just because relationships with other people make me have a greater sense of self worth, doesn't mean that without those relationships I think I'm worthless or worth very little.
There is also the difference between subjective value and absolute value, and the nature of worth itself. All you are really doing is twisting the meaning of Val's words so that his worldview sounds terrible. That is a strawman.
Gorgo also wrote: quote:
Why do you need to create these afterlives and souls and "The Devines" and "need for mysticisms?" Why isn't life good enough as it is? Why aren't you good enough as you are?
Ugh. It is sickening enough to watch a Christian proselytize. I simply can't stomach watching an atheist do it.
Gorgo – mystical beliefs and the psychological need for them is not rational. You are trying to debate this like they are. Consider what the values are here. Is one's first value being absolutely rational in one's worldview even regarding the greatest and unsolvable mysteries of life, or is one's first value achieving the greatest fulfillment in life? If the higher value is the latter, it makes sense to be rational in all matters regarding worldly things, but beyond that, spiritual beliefs can be more beneficial than pure agnosticism. In that sense, religious belief can be very rational – it is rational in that it often serves a psychological need of an individual in a way that isn't self-destructive.
Then Gorgo wrote:quote:
I would not ask you to stop if you find pleasure in it and it harms no one.
However, I wonder how true it is that it does not harm you or others.
You have no evidence that Val's beliefs harm him or others, so you are running on biased speculation. Hang out with some Reform Jews, some liberal Epicopals, some Humanistic Protestants, some Unitarians and Quakers, and then report the evidence of harm that their religious beliefs cause.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/18/2006 16:50:38 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 16:56:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
However, I wonder how true it is that it does not harm you or others. You have no evidence that Val's beliefs harm him or others, so you are running on biased speculation. Hang out with some Reform Jews, some liberal Epicopals, some Humanistic Protestants, some Unitarians and Quakers, and then report the evidence of harm that their religious beliefs cause.
You assume that because you don't understand me, that I don't know good people who call themselves religious and then tell me how terrible "fundies" and "morons" are. You completely miss the point while making my point at the same time. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 17:12:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
You assume that because you don't understand me, that I don't know good people who call themselves religious and then tell me how terrible "fundies" and "morons" are. You completely miss the point while making my point at the same time.
Huh? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 17:34:00 [Permalink]
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| Never mind. Just suffice it to say that you think I'm attacking someone, and I'm not. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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