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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 04/24/2006 : 10:12:22 [Permalink]
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| You're doing fine. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/24/2006 10:13:15 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2006 : 10:15:10 [Permalink]
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| Anyway, to get back on topic, why are you interested in people who want to call people idiots for this reason? Would you take people who used terms like "whack job" and "idiot" seriously? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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IsaacKoi
New Member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2006 : 10:33:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Anyway, to get back on topic, why are you interested in people who want to call people idiots for this reason? Would you take people who used terms like "whack job" and "idiot" seriously?
I'm interested in showing that there is some common ground between the more rational "believers" (i.e. pro-ETHers) and the less extreme skeptics.
Both a "believer" (Hynek) and a skeptic (Klass) have said:
(a) that some people believe that all UFO witnesses/investigators are "idiots" (or a similar term);
(b) that such a view does not reflect the variety of UFO witnesses.
(There are other similar misconceptions which some members of the public appear to suffer from).
So, the first step in addressing such misconceptions is to find some of the most extreme examples of expressions of these views.
I hope this clarifies why I'm interested in finding such statements.
Kind Regards,
Isaac |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2006 : 16:03:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Anyway, to get back on topic, why are you interested in people who want to call people idiots for this reason? Would you take people who used terms like "whack job" and "idiot" seriously?
I would, depending on the context.
I'm all for civility, emotional detachment and rationality, most of the time. However, in a forum like this, a bit of give and take is more than par for the course. In fact, that's one of SFN's big attractions for me. If you want to go ahead and give me a blast, go for it. What someone calls me generally bothers me not at all, but it does make me think about why they did it.
We tend to discuss things that people often have serious convictions and feelings about. People that are indifferent to these issues will probably not post, or, more likely, not come here at all. From most of the people here, I'd be more likely to be offended by the term "ignorant" than "whack job". Why? Context. |
John's just this guy, you know. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 03:55:30 [Permalink]
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| It's nothing more than an insult. It's disrespectful, and anyone who calls someone else an "idiot" or a "whack job" had better take a long look at themselves first. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 07:18:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by IsaacKoi
So, the first step in addressing such misconceptions is to find some of the most extreme examples of expressions of these views.
Were it up to me, the "most extreme examples" would include not a few UFO/abduction proponents who profess their intelligence as if that lends their claims validity. Actually, it's probably more likely that others are doing so for the "leaders" of the field, as in "he's got a PhD in physics, so the idea that he's fooling himself is ridiculous" (for example), so it may not fit your thesis.
Does the subject necessarily need to be UFO-related? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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IsaacKoi
New Member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 08:05:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by IsaacKoi
So, the first step in addressing such misconceptions is to find some of the most extreme examples of expressions of these views.
Were it up to me, the "most extreme examples" would include not a few UFO/abduction proponents who profess their intelligence as if that lends their claims validity.
Hi Dave W.,
Although not directly relevant to the article I'm writing about misconceptions about UFO witnesses/"believers", oddly enough I've got another article on the back-burner concerning MENSA. As part of my research on that subject, I've noted a few examples which may be relevant to your point about "UFO/abduction proponents who profess their intelligence":
(1)One of the most famous UFO researchers/authors, Stanton Friedman, has mentioned his membership of MENSA: See
http://www.okmensa.org/archives/2004/11/05/UFOsig/
(2)The abductees/contactee Ted Owens is named as a Mensa member by Sachs, Margaret in her “The UFO Encyclopedia” (1980) at pages 235-236 (in an entry entitled “Owens, Ted”) of the Corgi softback edition.
Of course, it is possible to explain any such statement as merely being a reaction to their (?justified) belief that they are commonly perceived by members of the public/skeptics as being idiots/nutters.
As for your question "Does the subject necessarily need to be UFO-related?", well, let's just say that such quotes would be the most useful to the article I'm working on.
Kind Regards,
Isaac |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 08:43:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by IsaacKoi
Although not directly relevant to the article I'm writing about misconceptions about UFO witnesses/"believers"...
I brought it up as a possible misconception about themselves and standards of evidence in general, more or less.quote:
...oddly enough I've got another article on the back-burner concerning MENSA. As part of my research on that subject, I've noted a few examples which may be relevant to your point about "UFO/abduction proponents who profess their intelligence":
...
Of course, it is possible to explain any such statement as merely being a reaction to their (?justified) belief that they are commonly perceived by members of the public/skeptics as being idiots/nutters.
Well, the problem is that denying one is a "kook" by pointing out one's intelligence is forgetful of the popular "mad scientist" image many of us grew up with, which has - for better or worse - established the idea that the most-intelligent people in the world are often stark raving mad.
Of course, another part of the whole issue is that words change their meaning over time. "Idiot," for example, is no longer used in the mental-health field to describe someone with an IQ below a certain figure. It's usage, popularly, seems to be to be as a description of someone who does (or believes) something which would generally be regarded (within context) as very much unwise. So I'm not sure that "idiot" actually implies a low intelligence anymore, and I'm much more sure that "nutter" only suggests insanity.
But, you're having problems finding prominent UFO skeptics actually applying such labels to the believers in the first place, so the above distinctions may very well be moot.quote:
As for your question "Does the subject necessarily need to be UFO-related?", well, let's just say that such quotes would be the most useful to the article I'm working on.
Well, it's probably easier to find quotes like you want from less-focused skeptics, who've got less of an interest in maintaining a civil tone with UFO believers. I mean, were Klass to have spoken out against the "loonies" he's criticizing, they would have been much more likely to avoid talking to him at all, thus hampering his own investigations.
And I'm fairly certain that UFO belief correlates well with belief in other "paranormal" subjects, such as Bigfoot, government conspiracy theories or the Lock Ness monster. I did just read this morning one skeptic's recollection of her own first experiences with her friends' beliefs in astrology, to which her reaction was "...these people are well-educated..." That sort of thing might establish the views you're talking about "by proxy," but it's not direct evidence. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 08:51:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
It's nothing more than an insult. It's disrespectful, and anyone who calls someone else an "idiot" or a "whack job" had better take a long look at themselves first.
Well, I am pretty loath to calling someone an idiot. (That is Snake's department.) But hey, short of searching for the exact pathology that causes certain crazy behavior, I am perfectly willing to call someone a whack job and mean it as shorthand for some kind of pathology. I suppose that can be viewed as an ad hom, but really, I'm just cutting to the chase. For example, there are those who push the idea that HIV infection is not related to AIDS. And to that end they recommend to those willing to suspend reason and a willingness to ignore the evidence that clearly shows that the idea being pushed is nonsense, that they stop taking their AIDS medications and go on to more “natural” ways to fight HIV infection. In the face of so much evidence to the contrary, while I may not call them idiots, I do certainly think that they are crazy. I think that they are whack jobs. Worse, even though they are deluded, I have a hard time not calling them murderers as well…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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IsaacKoi
New Member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 09:08:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Well, it's probably easier to find quotes like you want from less-focused skeptics, who've got less of an interest in maintaining a civil tone with UFO believers. I mean, were Klass to have spoken out against the "loonies" he's criticizing, they would have been much more likely to avoid talking to him at all, thus hampering his own investigations.
That seems logical. However, I did not expect it to be so difficult to find examples of explicit ridicule by, say, newspaper or TV commentators.
If such dismissive views of UFO witnesses/believers are as widespread as complaints on UFO discussion Lists imply (not to mention comments I've heard personally) why is it so hard to find examples. Fear of libel suits possibly? Or isn't there as much ridicule as is commonly thought?
Kind Regards,
Isaac |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 09:43:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Worse, even though they are deluded, I have a hard time not calling them murderers as well.
The term "murderer" might give me a clue as to their behavior. "Psychotic" might give a clue as to their mental state. "Whack job" tells me about the person using the term, rather than anything about the person supposedly being described. "Whack job" or "idiot" are terms to express one's anger, rather than useful, descriptive terms about someone else.
Just my opinion, but I don't think people who believe in "The Devine" have any business calling other people "whack jobs."
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 09:54:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by IsaacKoi
That seems logical. However, I did not expect it to be so difficult to find examples of explicit ridicule by, say, newspaper or TV commentators.
Why would such commentators ridicule these ideas? The public wants such fantastic stuff, the ideas sell papers and airtime. The media in general aren't going to be quick to bite the hand that feeds 'em.
quote:
If such dismissive views of UFO witnesses/believers are as widespread as complaints on UFO discussion Lists imply (not to mention comments I've heard personally) why is it so hard to find examples. Fear of libel suits possibly? Or isn't there as much ridicule as is commonly thought?
I'd suspect that the ridicule is largely thought to be unnecessary, in the sense that what UFO believers claim often seems to be self-evidently ridiculous, so it doesn't need to be pointed out.
On the other hand, I just found this:Surely, you recognize that I am being facetious when I refer to UFOologists as geniuses. No true genius would spend any more time on Betty and Barney Hill than on Betty and Barney Rubble.
- Reader Comments to UFO article in Robert Carroll's Skeptic's Dictionary (near the bottom of the page). So, there's an example for you. Or is it not strong enough, due to its negative sense? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 10:03:14 [Permalink]
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Here's the result of my search of newspapers, and I can only add this because of a mention of Shirley MacLaine and UFO's at the end:
And the Oscar for best nutter... Anne Heche admits she's bonkers in her new autobiography. She's in good company in Hollywood, says James Langton.
The Evening Standard (London, England); 9/7/2001; Langton, James
Byline: JAMES LANGTON
CALL Me Crazy is the title of the new biography from the Hollywood star Anne Heche. Sounds fine to me. After all, this is a woman who admits to changing her name to Celestia and believing that two Los Angeles cops were really escorts called Peace and Calm who had come to take her to heaven in a spaceship. The book came out in America this week, less than three days after marrying her cameraman boyfriend, Coleman Laffoon. A fairly ordinary thing to do, except that until last year she was the most famous lesbian in showbusiness, shacked up with the comedienne Ellen DeGeneres. Until she met DeGeneres, she writes: "I'd never had such great sex,'' which must give her new husband something to think about.
(Gorgo removes some of the article for brevity here)
On the other hand, marriage is no guarantee of stability. Take Angelina Jolie. Billy Bob Thornton did, and as a couple they make the late Sid Vicious and lover Nancy look like Terry and June. If there was an Oscar for best loony, Jolie would be a serious contender with Heche, while Billy Bob would be a dead cert in the best-supporting category.
Jolie has been rightly recognised as a fully fledged showbiz wacko since she was caught snogging her brother James after winning Best Supporting Actress for Girl Interrupted at the Oscars two years ago.
Only last month, Angelina and Bob were telling us more about their relationship than anyone really needs to know. His-and-her funeral plots as a wedding anniversary gift.
Mutual blood-drinking sessions.
(and more removed here)
Part of the problem now is that some of the personalities don't exactly see eye-to-eye. "It's like living in a maze,'' she confessed to a magazine last month. "The parts don't get along and some of them have real strange ideas about how to defend.'' Like an emotional San Andreas fault, Hollywood constantly teeters on the brink of a collective nervous breakdown. In the past, there was Shirley MacLaine who believed that in a previous life she was a Mongolian nomad and that UFOs hover over her head. There was Marlon Brando, who sent a native American called Saheen Littlefeather (who later turned out to be an actress called Maria Cruz) to turn down his 1973 Oscar for The Godfather.
John Travolta and Tom Cruise are Scientologists, although, if the cult's lawyers are reading this, there's nothing wrong with that.
COPYRIGHT 2001 Solo Syndication Limited
This material is published under license from the publisher through the Gale Group, Farmington Hills, Michigan. All inquiries regarding rights should be directed to the Gale Group.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 10:38:00 [Permalink]
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With the right perspective we can all be classified as whack-jobs or idiots or whatever. Einstein is an idiot in my book for knowingly letting his personal beliefs mold his research, get over it.
Edit: link broken |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 04/25/2006 10:44:36 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 10:54:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
With the right perspective we can all be classified as whack-jobs or idiots or whatever. Einstein is an idiot in my book for knowingly letting his personal beliefs mold his research, get over it.
Edit: link broken
Or with an idiotic perspective. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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