|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 04/25/2006 : 11:13:16 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Worse, even though they are deluded, I have a hard time not calling them murderers as well.
The term "murderer" might give me a clue as to their behavior. "Psychotic" might give a clue as to their mental state. "Whack job" tells me about the person using the term, rather than anything about the person supposedly being described. "Whack job" or "idiot" are terms to express one's anger, rather than useful, descriptive terms about someone else.
Just my opinion, but I don't think people who believe in "The Devine" have any business calling other people "whack jobs."
[/quote]
Your opinion is duely noted Gorgo.
Now can we move on? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
 |
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 11:41:55 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by IsaacKoi
Or isn't there as much ridicule as is commonly thought?
That's where I'd place my vote. The ridicule is in the eye of the beholder.
I can think of these plausible explanations:
Some of the UFOlogists are ignored and in order to get attention invents them being ridiculed in order to create sympathy. Just like the American Christian Fundamentalists created the idea of "Secularists' War On Christmans" right out of their own imagination.
People react hesitantly to UFOlogists, but without saying anything. But they are over-sensitive the reaction and over-interpret it as ridicule. I've seen this kind of reaction in other people (those who stutter for example) who believe that people they meet judge them as dumb. Kind of exaggerated percieved social stigma. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 11:59:01 [Permalink]
|
| Well said, Dr. M. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
IsaacKoi
New Member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 12:04:38 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Why would such commentators ridicule these ideas? The public wants such fantastic stuff, the ideas sell papers and airtime. The media in general aren't going to be quick to bite the hand that feeds 'em.
Well, I've certainly come across very skeptical/dismissive newspaper articles and editorials. The 3 links at the beginning of my original email in this thread gave several such examples - but of largely _implicit_ rather than _explicit_ views.
quote:
I'd suspect that the ridicule is largely thought to be unnecessary, in the sense that what UFO believers claim often seems to be self-evidently ridiculous, so it doesn't need to be pointed out.
I'm sure that applies to some people. Once, I was asked by a colleague what I was reading. I explained that the relevant book (by Menzel) was by an astronomer, seeking to explain the causes of UFO reports. The colleague expressed considerable surprise that anyone would feel there was any need to write a book to explain such reports.
quote:
On the other hand, I just found this:Surely, you recognize that I am being facetious when I refer to UFOologists as geniuses. No true genius would spend any more time on Betty and Barney Hill than on Betty and Barney Rubble.
- Reader Comments to UFO article in Robert Carroll's Skeptic's Dictionary (near the bottom of the page). So, there's an example for you. Or is it not strong enough, due to its negative sense?
Many thanks for finding that quote. I hadn't seen that one, and it's about the best example of a dismissive attitude to ufologists anyone has come up with in about 100 or 200 responses to my request. If you don't mind me being a bit picky, I'd still prefer a positive statement (e.g. ufologists are stupid) rather than a negative one that none of them is a "true genius" - something I don't recall any of them claiming.
Then there is the matter of quotes about ufo witnesses and about those that subscribe to the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis.
Kind Regards,
Isaac |
|
|
|
IsaacKoi
New Member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 12:06:06 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by IsaacKoi
Or isn't there as much ridicule as is commonly thought?
That's where I'd place my vote. The ridicule is in the eye of the beholder.
Possibly. But remember that Klass (not exactly a "believer") said he had encountered such ridicule...
Isaac |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 13:28:15 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by IsaacKoi
Many thanks for finding that quote. I hadn't seen that one, and it's about the best example of a dismissive attitude to ufologists anyone has come up with in about 100 or 200 responses to my request. If you don't mind me being a bit picky, I'd still prefer a positive statement (e.g. ufologists are stupid) rather than a negative one that none of them is a "true genius" - something I don't recall any of them claiming.
I figured as much, as I hinted in my previous post. Perhaps more to your liking (as far as dismissiveness goes) would be what Carroll says in the article itself:The main reasons for believing in UFOs are the testimony of many people, the inability to distinguish science fiction from science, the willingness to trust incompetent men telling fantastic stories, the ability to distrust all contrary sources as being part of an evil conspiracy to withhold the truth, and a desire for contact with the world above. Belief in aliens in UFOs is akin to belief in supernatural beings.
- source Or how about these:Strieber comes off as a very disturbed person, but one who really believes he sees and is being harassed by aliens. He describes his feelings precisely enough to warrant believing he was in a very agitated psychological state prior to his visitation by aliens. A person in this heightened state of anxiety will be prone to hysteria and be especially vulnerable to radically changing behavior or belief patterns.
...
Dr. Mack claimed that his psychiatric patients were not mentally ill (then why was he treating them?) and that he could think of no better explanation for their stories than that they were true. However, until someone produces physical evidence that abductions have occurred, it seems more reasonable to believe that Dr. Mack and his patients were deluded or frauds.
...
Some of those who claim to have been abducted by aliens are probably frauds, some are very stressed, and some are probably suffering from a severe psychiatric disorder, but most seem to be fairly normal people who are especially fantasy prone.
- Carroll again, on alien abductions On the other hand, Carroll also says (on the same page):Most [abductees] do not seem to be money grabbers, using their weird experiences as a chance to get on television or to have movies made of their lives. In other words, the testimony is often, if not mostly, made by reasonably normal people without known ulterior motives. If their claims were not so bizarre, it would be indecent to distrust many of them. On to other folks:The 1993 Ig Nobel Prize Winners
PSYCHOLOGY
John Mack of Harvard Medical School and David Jacobs of Temple
University, mental visionaries, for their leaping conclusion that
people who believe they were kidnapped by aliens from outer space,
probably were -- and especially for their conclusion "the focus of
the abduction is the production of children. [REFERENCE: "Secret
Life : Firsthand, Documented Accounts of UFO Abductions"]
- Ig Nobel Prize Archives Responding to the previous quote:The opinion of Mack and Jacobs on the Tooth Fairy was not revealed.
- An Encyclopedia of Claims, Frauds, and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural, by James Randi Well, I'm sure I could go on all day digging up worries about abductees' mental health or implied accusations of less-than-average intelligence, but that's not what you're looking for. You're looking for quotes in which a critic openly states that he/she thinks UFO believers (or witnesses) are stupid, or morons, or idiots, or the like. Instead of me tossing out lots of probable misses, like the above, perhaps we should just give you a list of names you may not have heard of, and you can Google around for quotes you can use. Going to James Randi's website, for example, and searching there for "UFO stupid" (without quotes), offers five pages of results (most not applicable), but does offer this nine-year-old snippet:We're told that this cult embraced the stupid assertion that comet Hale-Bopp is accompanied by a huge UFO, to which these dupes thought they could migrate by killing themselves. Strange, weird notion. But it was invented, promoted, and encouraged by two men who I believe should now be confronted with the result of their callous "joke." Ed Dames, a would-be "remote viewer" who has peppered the media with outright lies about my long-standing challenge to "psychic" powers, and who has said that I've refused to test his wondrous powers, came up with the Hale-Bopp/UFO farce, and may have given the deluded higher Source people the final item they needed to convince them that suicide would deliver them to Nirvana. Behind Dames, feeding off his nutty notions, is radio personality Art Bell. Bell proudly claims that he's heard nightly on 400 stations across the USA, and to hold on to that audience, he unconscionably promotes every sort of stupidity that he can attract; Ed Dames is his special pet and current "star."
- The Higher Source - a Dead End But once again, it's the ideas which are stupid or nutty, not necessarily the people professing those ideas (well, the victims are described as "dupes"). So I don't know how successful your quest is going to be. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 13:44:41 [Permalink]
|
Hey, just Googling for "ufo morons" (without quotes) hits a little bit of paydirt:[Title: A message to the UFO morons.]
Look you assholes
Get a life. There are NO UFO`s in secret bases. You only show your
ignorance of physics and space travel.
Go figure out what the distances are and the energy requirments
to make it to the Pleadies and back in a million years, then get
back to me.
Better yet, why don`t you switch gears and start hunting Bigfoot
or the Loch Ness monster?
- Skunk Works Digest, Monday, 5 February 1996 Of course, it's just some guy on the Skunk Works listserv irate at the "invasion" of "UFO nuts" on that listserv, and not some prominent UFO critic, but it's a data point nonetheless, right?  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 16:01:13 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Your opinion is duely noted Gorgo.
Now can we move on?
Sure. You can have the last word. Just wish I'd known it was more reasonable to have called you a scumbag whack job than it was to have tried to convince you that you are not worthless as a human being. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 18:35:30 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
It's nothing more than an insult. It's disrespectful, and anyone who calls someone else an "idiot" or a "whack job" had better take a long look at themselves first.
You're missing my point, perhaps I didn't explain myself very well. Of course, sometimes the terms above are used only to express extreme distaste or disrespect. I don't however think the requirement for a "long look at oneself" necessarily follows. In some contexts, it's quite possible that a display of disrespect is appropriate. As long as the person is prepared to stand-by and/or justify their description, I don't have any problem with the practice itself.
Language is constantly changing, what one person finds offensive, another won't. Sure, there are generally accepted "norms", but these are also somewhat regional and also change over time. I am often amazed that words themselves have such a big effect on people, separate from their context.
Calling some one "uninformed", "obtuse", "poorly educated" is not necessarily any less offensive than "idiot" or "whack job". I would suggest someone using correct grammar and innocuous or well understood terminology is just as responsible for "having a look at themselves" as anyone else. Supposedly superior communication skills don't validate an argument. |
John's just this guy, you know. |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2006 : 03:16:09 [Permalink]
|
| It can be just as offensive, but at least it has a meaning. One can argue with a word such as uninformed. Some of these other words have no other meaning than an insult. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
IsaacKoi
New Member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2006 : 04:39:39 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Instead of me tossing out lots of probable misses, like the above, perhaps we should just give you a list of names you may not have heard of, and you can Google around for quotes you can use. ... But once again, it's the ideas which are stupid or nutty, not necessarily the people professing those ideas (well, the victims are described as "dupes"). So I don't know how successful your quest is going to be.
Hi again Dave W,
Thanks for the further quotes. Some reasonably close near-misses - do you mind if I use them elsewhere?
Thanks also for the link to Randi's website. I'd visited it before, but wasn't aware that he had a forum.
In terms of other names to search for, that sounds like it could be quite useful. I've got a reasonably extensive collection of books by skeptics (particularly, but not limited to, those directly relating to UFOs), but am a bit lighter on links to skeptical material on the Internet and skeptical forums. (I tend to prefer reading books than material on the Internet).
Dr Mabuse - Do you mind if I quote your "The ridicule is in the eye of the beholder" remark elsewhere?
By the way, I've found fascinating how difficult I've found it (despite posting on several forums seeking assistance and getting _lots_ of replies) to locate really dismissive quotations about _all_ UFO witnesses/"believers"/investigators.
My own reading of UFO books and material had implied (or expressly stated) that there is a lot of such ridicule. The link below is to a basic Google search for "UFO ridicule", which lists lots of complaints (without giving many specific examples, and the ones given are a bit weak...):
http://tinyurl.com/zu6az
Thanks for the help and discussion.
Kind Regards,
Isaac |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2006 : 05:27:23 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Your opinion is duely noted Gorgo.
Now can we move on?
Sure. You can have the last word. Just wish I'd known it was more reasonable to have called you a scumbag whack job than it was to have tried to convince you that you are not worthless as a human being.
[/quote]
Since I never held the position that I was a worthless as a human being, I find your concern misplaced.
Let's just clear this once and for all.
I acknowledge that you believe that religion is inherently harmful. I disagree. I also note that your interpretation of religion is based on extremist positions and have limited validity. I also acknowledge that you will willfully ignore any explaination which counters your perceptions. Just like Chomsky and the current President, you never let new data get in the way of your held beliefs.
I think this is the crux of the bone of contention between us and believe there will be no middle ground between us on this subject. As such, I see no use in continuing a dialogue on this subject with you any further.
Have a nice life, Gorgo. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2006 : 05:43:37 [Permalink]
|
| Like I said, you have the last word, Val. Your refusal to engage in polite dialogue is noted. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
IsaacKoi
New Member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2006 : 07:14:13 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Hey, just Googling for "ufo morons" (without quotes) hits a little bit of paydirt... Of course, it's just some guy on the Skunk Works listserv irate at the "invasion" of "UFO nuts" on that listserv, and not some prominent UFO critic, but it's a data point nonetheless, right?
Well, finding insults on the Internet of almost _any_ group or _any_ belief isn't that hard, whether because people feel less inhibited or because they simply like to make provocative statements to gain a response.
A few days ago I came across a post to a UFO discussion list stating that they were all "freeks" (sic).
Ideally, I'd like some quotations from books to illustrate the ridicule that is frequently mentioned. I'd settle for a few explicit insults in newspapers or on TV. I don't give much weight to comments on the Internet by people I've never heard of.
(I also don't give much weight to the views of someone that can't spell his own insults correctly!).
The negative results so far (after reading dozens of books etc), are fairly interesting in themselves - at least to me...
All the best,
Isaac
|
| Edited by - IsaacKoi on 04/26/2006 09:38:07 |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2006 : 07:18:35 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by IsaacKoi
Dr Mabuse - Do you mind if I quote your "The ridicule is in the eye of the beholder" remark elsewhere?
I don't see why you shouldn't...
As it is a bastardised version of "Beauty is in the eye..." I'm uncertain that I can claim copyright to it. However, you may feel free to plug Skeptic Friends Network in conjuction with that quote.   |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
