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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 04/26/2006 : 16:43:50 [Permalink]
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Here's an excerpt from Carl Sagan's "DEMON HAUNTED WORLD" as quoted in Skeptic Magazine:
"The chief difficulty I see in the skeptical movement is in its polarizations: Us vs. Them--the sense that we [skeptics] have a monopoly on the truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons; that if you're sensible, you'll listen to us; and if not, you're beyond redemption. This is unconstructive. It does not get the message across."
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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IsaacKoi
New Member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2006 : 03:49:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Here's an excerpt from Carl Sagan's "DEMON HAUNTED WORLD" as quoted in Skeptic Magazine:
"The chief difficulty I see in the skeptical movement is in its polarizations: Us vs. Them--the sense that we [skeptics] have a monopoly on the truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons; that if you're sensible, you'll listen to us; and if not, you're beyond redemption. This is unconstructive. It does not get the message across."
Thanks Gorgo. That's a useful quote.
Following up on your quotation, this morning I've found the relevant extract in Carl Sagan's “The Demon Haunted World” (1997) at page 282 (in Chapter 17) of the Headline softcover edition.
There were a couple of very minor errors/typos in the Skeptic Magazine's quote, so I'll give an accurage version below:
"… the chief deficiency I see in the skeptical movement is in its polarization: Us vs. Them - the sense that we [skeptics] have a monopoly on the truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons; that if you're sensible, you'll listen to us; and if not, you're beyond redemption. This is unconstructive. It does not get the message across."
Kind Regards,
Isaac |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2006 : 06:55:20 [Permalink]
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| Actually, I should have named the newspaper, which I don't recall, which quoted Skeptic, which quoted the book. Thanks for clarifying. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2006 : 19:18:02 [Permalink]
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That Sagan quote is top of page 300 in the Random House first edition hardcover. And he continues:...It does not get the message across. It condemns the skeptics to permanent minority status; whereas, a compassionate approach that from the beginning acknowledges the human roots of pseudoscience and superstition might be much more widely accepted.
If we understand this, then of course we feel the uncertainty and pain of the abductees, or those who dare not leave home without consulting their horoscopes, or those who pin their hopes on crystals from Atlantis. And such compassion for kindred spirits in a common quest also works to make science and the scientific method less off-putting, especially to the young. And with that context, Sagan appears to be pretty damn condescending, and somewhat self-contradictory in his implied expression of pity for everyone who is not a skeptic (us-vs-them again, but trying to get them to become more like us).
A much more appropriate quote for the question you're considering, Isaac, is found just a few pages beforehand, on page 297:Have I ever heard a skeptic wax superior and contemptuous? Certainly. I've even sometimes heard, to my retrospective dismay, that unpleasant tone in my own voice. Even when it's applied sensitively, scientific skepticism may come across as arrogant, dogmatic, heartless, and dismissive of the feelings and deeply held beliefs of others. And, it must be said, some scientists and dedicated skeptics apply this tool as a blunt instrument, with little finesse. Sometimes it looks as if the skeptical conclusion came first, that contentions were dismissed before, not after, the evidence was examined. All of us cherish our beliefs. They are, to a degree, self-defining. When someone comes along who challenges our belief system as insufficiently well-based — or who, like Socrates, merely asks embarrassing questions that we haven't thought of, or demonstrates that we've swept key underlying assumptions under the rug — if becomes much more than a search for knowledge. It feels like a personal assault. I provide this quote, obviously, because it's a hypothesis about why you're not finding the quotes you're looking for. Because no matter how delicately one may approach someone with opposing beliefs, that someone may come away thinking you're a jerk who was calling you a moron. And there's not a huge divide between "is he calling me an idiot?" and "he called me an idiot" after some time goes by.
When I was active in the online psoriasis communities, I saw this sort of thing happen all the time. Someone (Mr. X) pops into a forum to tell everyone about this wonderful new "cure" for psoriasis, and I (or some other proponent of evidence-based medicine) would ask, "where can we read the studies which show that it works?" or a similar question. Next thing I know, Mr. X is telling me that I said that his wonderful treatment cannot possibly work. And a few posts later (after I explain that I never said anything like that), Mr. X is suddenly saying that I think he's stupid (never said that, either).
And it always seemed to me that the more emotionally invested someone was, the more likely they'd take offense to me even trying to learn more about whatever it was they were pushing. Even if I agreed to the statement, "that may have a beneficial effect on psoriasis," if I didn't agree with Mr. X about the possible treatment mechanism, I'd likely find myself labeled a cad, or a "drug-company apologist" (I allegedly got paid by drug companies to "poo-poo" non-pharmaceutical treatments, paid enough to own a big yacht, despite my public promotion the non-pharmaceutical treatments that we know that work) or worse. I've even been on the receiving end of threats of physical violence for turning a critical eye towards someone's pet psoriasis therapy.
And, of course, this whole phenomenon isn't limited to non-skeptics. I know I'm on the ultra-sensitive side when it comes to statements which sound like attempts to claim that the scientific method and religious revelation are equally useful tools for learning about the world (why that? I dunno). Gorgo seems to have a hair-trigger for suggestions that non-skeptics are less intelligent than skeptics. Other people have other "hang ups." Only a very few of us are saints. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 03:47:21 [Permalink]
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Why do you think what he said is condescending? I think the opposite seems to be true. He seems to say that we all have things we could learn, and that we need to treat others as we would treat ourselves. To call someone else a moron is to call yourself a moron. If I have a hair-trigger, it's for wondering why people don't like themselves very much.
Same thing Dave talks about happens to all atheists who attempt at all to talk about religion with religious people. They automatically assume we're on the attack, and that we think they're stupid. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/28/2006 03:53:36 |
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IsaacKoi
New Member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 08:34:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Why do you think what [Sagan] said is condescending? I think the opposite seems to be true. He seems to say that we all have things we could learn, and that we need to treat others as we would treat ourselves.
Hi Gorgo,
Well, I have to agree with Dave W on this one.
While the small extract says it is not constructive to call "believers" morons (and this in itself is useful to me, to show that Sagan did not encourage others to ridicule believers) the surrounding pages rather strongly imply that Sagan was opposed to people _saying_ that believers were morons rather than saying it is factually incorrect to _conclude_ that believers are morons.
The surrounding pages talk about making allowances for human feelings and failings. He also fairly clearly implies that "believers" in UFOs etc are either ignorant of the data or irrational.
To simplify his comments (and at the risk of oversimplifying them), Sagan was saying that it's not polite to call these poor people morons.
So, his comments are a bit different to the ones I quoted by Klass in my original email (in which Klass stated that it _incorrect_ to consider UFO witnesses are all kooks).
However, while looking for the quote you helpfully provided from Demon Haunted World, I came across several other remarks which establish some common ground between Sagan and "believers" on issues which might surprise some of the more dismissive members of the public. But that, as they say, is another story...
Kind Regards,
Isaac
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| Edited by - IsaacKoi on 04/28/2006 08:35:58 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 09:22:06 [Permalink]
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| Gorgo, the way I read Sagan (with the context of the examples he gave) is that the poor people who use weird beliefs as coping mechanisms because they're scared of reality should be pitied, and that by acting as if the skeptic and the believer are on a "common quest" (whether true or not), the skeptical "message" would make more progress. Regardless of the actual utility of such an attitude as a means of spreading skeptical values (for which I have no evidence, and I don't think Sagan did, either), it appears to be a clear call for skeptics to treat non-skeptics as children (until, of course, such a time as they get over their implied irrational fears). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 11:52:01 [Permalink]
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| Still, in order to draw any definitive conclusions behind Sagan's choice of word require some interpretation, and reading in context. As such, any condescending remarks from Sagan is veiled and not the right-out "UFO-believers are fucking morons" such as the examples I thought IsaacKoi was lookning for. |
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IsaacKoi
New Member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 12:40:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
any condescending remarks from Sagan is veiled and not the right-out "UFO-believers are fucking morons" such as the examples I thought IsaacKoi was lookning for.
Oh, I'm still looking for that sort of comment...
Sagan's remark (out of context) is helpful as an admonishment to skeptics not to make such aggressive statements.
The only debate (and it's a debate based only on inferences and subjective interpretation of other remarks by Sagan) is whether in fact Sagan had any factual dispute with the _content_ of remarks or simply had an issue with such remarks being _expressed_.
Kind Regards,
Isaac
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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IsaacKoi
New Member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2006 : 01:07:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Hey, Isaac: when your research is complete, where will we be able to read the results?
Hi Dave W,
I'll be sure to post a link or a reference here when it's complete.
Up until now, I tend to post my longer pieces on the UFO UpDates List at:
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/latest/
(As you may knowm, some of the better known "names" in ufology - both pro-ETHers and skeptics - post on that List).
As a little experiment with blogging, last year I put a few pieces on a blog I created - but I don't tend to update it except with my most significant pieces, e.g. about the 1,800 page draft UFO/SETI Chronology I recently circulated (largely consisting of references)- see http://tinyurl.com/jalfb).
I've sometimes been slightly tempted to submit an articles to a magazine or two - but I'm more interested in sharing my views freely and getting feedback than I am in achieving fame from publication. Also, I don't particularly want friends or colleagues to know of my interest in certain issues relating to UFO reports (hence my use of a pseudonym on posting on this subject).
Kind Regards,
Isaac |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 00:20:26 [Permalink]
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One psychologist believes "abductees" are not "whack jobs", but they are deluded.
Susan Clancy thinks the chances are good that you know at least one person who claims to have been abducted by aliens
quote:
They're not nuts, said Clancy, a postdoctoral researcher and author of a new book, the first to analyze the psychological underpinnings of abduction stories. They're normal
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No one, she said, has actually been kidnapped by extraterrestrials.
Instead, Clancy points to other causes including sleep hallucinations, innate suggestibility and a deeply human desire to explain the world. Pop culture plays a major role, too
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"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
| Edited by - Ghost_Skeptic on 05/02/2006 00:29:42 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 08:44:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ghost_Skeptic
One psychologist believes "abductees" are not "whack jobs", but they are deluded.
Susan Clancy thinks the chances are good that you know at least one person who claims to have been abducted by aliens
quote:
They're not nuts, said Clancy, a postdoctoral researcher and author of a new book, the first to analyze the psychological underpinnings of abduction stories. They're normal
quote:
No one, she said, has actually been kidnapped by extraterrestrials.
Instead, Clancy points to other causes including sleep hallucinations, innate suggestibility and a deeply human desire to explain the world. Pop culture plays a major role, too
Also, they don't seem to display any of the symptoms that the false memory people claim as a syndrome that covers this kind of “false memory.” It seems to be something else entirely. In most cases, those who claim to have been abducted seem to lead normal lives, with the exception that they think they were abducted. A far cry from what the FMSF describes as False Memory Syndrome.
I agree. They are deluded. But as delusions go, it's a rather benign delusion…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
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