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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 12/10/2001 : 18:00:33
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Okay, what about the american guy who was found fighting with the Taliban? I hear he's going to go on trial. As much as I would happily put a bullet through his head myself, we should probably stick to the letter of the law here. Is being a despicable, fanatical, ignorant shithead against the law? Can the government make a charge of "treason" stick? What else could he be charged with?
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room.
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2001 : 03:05:23 [Permalink]
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I'm certainly no expert on this topic, but I think they could make it stick. This is from the 'lectric law library site:
quote:
TREASON - This word imports a betraying, treachery, or breach of allegiance.
The Constitution of the United States, Art. III, defines treason against the United States to consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort. This offence is punished with death. By the same article of the Constitution, no person shall be convicted of treason, unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
I would think the only possible out is if Walker can demonstrate that he renounced his citizenship prior to taking up arms.
My kids still love me. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2001 : 07:56:37 [Permalink]
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Two witnesses to the same overt act. Would this consist of military personnel who found him fighting with the Taliban? Then, that would be consistent with a conviction. Or does it require that he knowningly commited treasonous action against the US? Hopefully, ignorant idealist doesn't stand up in court.
When was the last time the US tried and convicted someone for treason? Have we ever?
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2001 : 08:05:51 [Permalink]
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Interesting legal problem.
* Prove that Walker joined the Taliban with the expressed intent of engaging and destroying U.S. forces.
* Prove that Walker was instrumental in the murder of the CIA operative in the prison uprising.
* Prove that Walker was anything more than a fool in the wrong place at the wrong time.
* Prove that Walker was under direct orders from his Taliban superiors to kill U.S. military personnel.
* Prove that the Afghan forces facing the Taliban unit that Walker was a part of was in legal alliance with the U.S., and as such, constitutes a direct attack on U.S. personnel.
* Prove that U.S. GROUND forces were in direct fire missions against the Taliban unit that Walker was a part of and therefore constitute targeting by the Taliban for destruction.
* Prove that Walker's cooperation with U.S. forces after capture have NO bearing on charges of treason and his status should not be downgraded to PUBLIC ASSHOLE NUMBER ONE.
Your witness, Mr. Rumsfeld.
(:raig |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2001 : 08:14:50 [Permalink]
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I just think this treason talk is ridiculous for many of the reasons alread mentioned. Sure he's not the brightest lad but that's a long way from treason.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2001 : 08:41:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
I just think this treason talk is ridiculous for many of the reasons alread mentioned. Sure he's not the brightest lad but that's a long way from treason.
I'm not advocating conviction on treason or any other charge, simply because I'm not knowledgeable enough of the specifics. Yet I don't understand your outright dismissal of it. He's not the brightest one in the bunch? So what? Unless it's to the point of mental incompetence. Otherwise, the lad is an adult capable of making adult decisions and being held accountable for them. If he wrote you a bad check, would you let him off because he's not the brightest one around? Would you deny him the right to enlist in our own army? If not, then why would you allow any 18, 19, 20, or 21 year old to do it?
quote:
* Prove that the Afghan forces facing the Taliban unit that Walker was a part of was in legal alliance with the U.S., and as such, constitutes a direct attack on U.S. personnel.
Interesting take, Mespo, and worth some consideration. But advocating for el Shatan for the nonce:
1. A legal alliance is not necessary; an alliance of any sort involving physical cooperation would suffice.
2. Walker need not have ever come into contact with US Forces to be guilty of treason; he need only have "adhered to our enemies." That one's beyond doubt, I think.
quote:
* Prove that Walker was anything more than a fool in the wrong place at the wrong time
Not necessary. Foolishness is not a defense against treason.
All that being said, I honestly have no stance on this because I'm not up on the law nor the details of the case. I'm just saying that in a cursory glance, it appears to me that treason could be made to stick.
My kids still love me. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2001 : 08:46:15 [Permalink]
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So it's treason if you go to join a group in another country and then that country is attacked by the US? I don't get it. It's not as if he left the US knowing that he would be facing American troops or that the attacks on September 11th would occur. All I see is someone in the wrong place at the wrong time. I have not even heard a thing about him taking arms against US citizens. If he is found guilty of treason then I think what constitutes treason should be reevaluated unless evidence comes to light of some serious act committed.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2001 : 09:00:33 [Permalink]
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Interesting legal problem.
Yes it is.
* Prove that Walker joined the Taliban with the expressed intent of engaging and destroying U.S. forces.
Mr. Walker continued fighting with the Taliban, raising arms against US forces. This would imply that Mr. Walker was fully cognizant of his actions with regards to the willful taking of American Service Members lives.
* Prove that Walker was instrumental in the murder of the CIA operative in the prison uprising.
Ah, but this is one point which we need not prove. Mr. Walker, while involved in the prison uprising, knew full well that he was fighting against US forces. Did willfully engage with Taliban against said forces with full knowledge. His culpability here is known.
* Prove that Walker was anything more than a fool in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Mr. Walker, through foolish ideology, knowingly joined forces with an unrecognized miltary/religious regime. This regimes right to rule has been, for the past five years, unrecognized by the United States and the United Nations. He knowingly and willfully threw himself in with those whom his rightful government declared outlaws among the worlds nations.
* Prove that Walker was under direct orders from his Taliban superiors to kill U.S. military personnel.
This point is unnecessary to prove directly. However, at the time he was found, he was working in concert with the Taliban regime in an effort to remove US military personnel from Afghani soil. Though, we can show no direct orders to that effect, we can show that of his own volition Mr. Walker worked with the Taliban in an effort to maintain control of Afghanistan by a despotic regime. In working with this regime, he, by association, is culpable in its actions.
* Prove that the Afghan forces facing the Taliban unit that Walker was a part of was in legal alliance with the U.S., and as such, constitutes a direct attack on U.S. personnel.
This one is sticky. Though no formal declaration from the United States was made pledging support for Northern Alliance forces in general, the cell active in the area in particular, we can by association place the United States in alliance with the Northern Alliance. The United States is known to have supplied the Northern Alliance with advisory personnel and personnel who were to direct bombing strikes on Taliban forces and away from the Northern Alliance. The Northern Alliance, until the United States became involved with the their struggle against the Taliban, was incapable of effectively moving their forces against the Taliban regime. Additionally, the immediate ends for the Northern Alliance and the United States are the same, removal of the Taliban forces from control of Afghanistan. By this alone, can we conclude that an alliance has been formed between the Northern alliance and the United States.
* Prove that U.S. GROUND forces were in direct fire missions against the Taliban unit that Walker was a part of and therefore constitute targeting by the Taliban for destruction.
I don't have enough information for this one. But I can damn sure guarantee that the person prosecuting will.
* Prove that Walker's cooperation with U.S. forces after capture have NO bearing on charges of treason and his status should not be downgraded to PUBLIC ASSHOLE NUMBER ONE.
Um, don't have to prove that. Think he knows he was in deep doo doo when the US pulled him out.
Mr. Walkers cooperation with US forces in no way lessens his cupability in his cooperation with Taliban forces agianst the US military personnel in country. Even a child, knowing that they will be punished, when caught will cooperate with their parents, knowing punishment will be worse for their lack of cooperation. This is ingrained in the child, Mr. Walker knew he was found out as an American aiding a force aligned against US interests. One must wonder, had he not been caught, would he still be attempting to kill US miliatry personnel or would he have tried waiting it out until he could return to the United States - unscathed.
Your witness, Mr. Rumsfeld.
No further arguments at this point. To say no further questions I'd have to go back and make them questions. But I doubt I'd be talking to Mr. Walker. I'd have a few military guys with impecable records, etc.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2001 : 11:23:20 [Permalink]
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Plea for the Defense:
In view of the Taliban's miserable record towards the treatment of women, my client, Mr. Walker, having truely regretted his actions, wishes to have charges of treason dismissed and instead, throw himself at the mercy of Oprah Winfrey and a national television audience with Judge Judy presiding. All proceeds from book sale advances would go toward the restoration of educational institutions for women in Afghanistan.
Only in America would such a scenario be possible. 
(:raig |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2001 : 07:55:24 [Permalink]
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I really don't think we know enough about Walker and his actions to make any kind of judgement about treason.
Just for example, Trish mentions that he was involved in the prison uprising. But was he? How do we know he wasn't cowering in some corner of the sub-basement throughout? (No, I don't claim he was... just that at this stage we don't know he wasn't.)
As to historical precedent, the last American that I know of who was tried for treason was another Walker -- the Navy spy. I believe that was settled with a plea arrangement that spared his son's life. Come to think of it, didn't the same thing happen more recently in the Aldritch Ames case? Or were those treason cases at all, or some other crime (espionage, for example)?
There was an American soldier who was executed during WWII, but I believe that was for desertion rather than treason.
Anyhow, it's an interesting case. Walker is now aboard a Navy ship, and it has not yet decided whether he'll be prosecuted by military or civilian authorities. Some kind of prosecution seems inevitable, though.
-- Donnie B.
[fixed a couple typos]
Edited by - Donnie B. on 12/15/2001 07:57:05 |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2001 : 12:10:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
If he wrote you a bad check, would you let him off because he's not the brightest one around?
Garrette, you'd be surprised what can happen in a military court. I knew a kid at Ramstein who was tried for writing bad checks to the tune of about $5,000. His military defense attorney actually got him off. All he had to do was repay the money. The attorney convinced the court martial board that the kid was a totally incompetent dipshit. Innocent by reason of stupidity. My husband was fit to be tied. Ed had been trying like crazy to get this kid booted. It took him about another year and a metric ton of paperwork, but he was finally successful.
Walker sounds like a spoiled little snot nosed rebel without a clue who found himself in a very bad place. His problem isn't a trial. I think a first year law student could prove beyond reasonable doubt that he's a complete bleeding idiot. His problem is that after 9/11, the American public wants blood. There's going to be intense pressure for a trial and a conviction.
I can't say I feel sorry for him. In his search for "pure islam", he managed to take up with the worst terrorists and scum this planet has managed to hatch in a long time.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2001 : 12:49:33 [Permalink]
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As far as to what Americans thought about the Taliban 7 months ago...
See the rantfest Trish and I were having on 5/27. The author is wrong assuming that the American public was blind to the Taliban prior to 9/11. Trish and I predicted that the aid money this country had been giving the Taliban would be tossed back in our teeth in the form of violence. Excuse us while we go set up business on a mountaintop somewhere. Move over Sylvia.
As far as John Walker? I don't know, I really don't know. I find it hard to by sympathetic or otherwise give a rat's ass about that kid. Then again, maybe the 20 years I spent in my country's military service colors my perceptions a bit.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2001 : 17:58:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Just for example, Trish mentions that he was involved in the prison uprising. But was he? How do we know he wasn't cowering in some corner of the sub-basement throughout? (No, I don't claim he was... just that at this stage we don't know he wasn't.)
A bit of role play Donnie. I have no clue what he was doing in Afghanistan. My point was that the argument can be made that he is culpable by association.
OK, I dredged up that letter I wrote sometime ago regarding the Taliban and monetary support from the Bush regime.
Does a lack of interest in math and abortive attempts at balancing the check book count? I have bounced a couple, but never to the tune of $5000. (My check book still doesn't balance - my mom can balance it in minutes and I spend days attempting - Yeesh!)
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2001 : 19:18:26 [Permalink]
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Treason is only one of three crimes described in the Constitution. The others are piracy and counterfeiting, but treason is the only crime defined, (Article III, Section 3). Fortunately, the act of treason has rarely been prosecuted in this country. As far as I can discover, there were less than thirty cases of treason tried in the United States. In the twentieth century, eight cases reached a Federal Appellate Court, and three of these made it to the Supreme Court. All eight of these cases sprang from World War II. If I am not mistaken, the recent sensational cases of Walker, Ames and Hansen, (though excellent cases for proving the effectiveness of polygraph tests), were all espionage cases, and the charge of treason was not pursued.
Understandably, there is little correlation between those earlier cases of treason and the case of our young Mr. Walker. The three cases that reached the Supreme Court involved ‘aid and comfort' charges, and are the most similar. Most any online law library should list, at least, the Cramer v. United States, (1945). The related case of Haupt v. United States, and the case of Kawakita v. United States appear to be a little more obscure.
In my opinion, if the gov't chooses to pursue this case, the prosecution will have difficulty finding clear “intent to betray,” and establishing a "genuine breach of allegiance." To quote the Cramer case, "[T]he defendent not only must intend the act, but he must intend to betray his country by means of the act." It is unlikely that the gov't will be able show that Mr. Walker's choice to support the Taliban at a time before the U.S. committed troops to the area was an ‘overt act' intended to betray our country. Furthermore, allegiance to the Taliban does not necessarily infer a ‘breach of allegiance' to the U.S.
However, these arguments become moot if two or more witnesses can show that Mr. Walker knowingly fired upon American troops, or if he offers a confession, (Unless, of course, this case makes it to the Renquist Court, and then...Who knows?)
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2001 : 19:32:03 [Permalink]
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BTW, I should mention that the Cramer v. United States case originated in one of Roosevelt's Military Tribunals. Cramer was convicted, though the Supreme Court later reversed the conviction. We should remember, however, that this occured during a Congressionally declared war against a tangible, nationalized enemy that directly threatenned our borders with the very real threat of invasion.
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