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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
 Posted - 12/16/2001 : 07:06:45 [Permalink]
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Won't happen, but IMO JW should be treated as any other combatant captured over there. Why should he be treated differently?
Think there has been less than 40 cases of treason brought in our entire history, US of A history.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2001 : 13:13:48 [Permalink]
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Greetings! After a long break away from this board (and also waiting until the forum problems were fixed), I've decided to jump in again. I promise to be good (hah!) and not create a scene (that will last about ten seconds, I'm sure).
However, I have to throw my two cents in on Johnny Doofus Taliban Jihad Walker: It's all nice to feel "sorry" for this delusional and dangerous fool and withhold judgement until his Mommy and Daddy can give him a good swat on the rump (followed by milk and cookies), but he went into this situation with his eyes wide open, can be considered an adult in most states of the Union, and is, indeed, older than many of the US military troops who are there in Afghanistan trying to avoid stepping on land mines in their attempts to wipe out bin Hidin'.
The media, particularly the Bay area media, have been full of victimization and "follow his bliss" excuses for Walker's behavior (this is the old "avoiding personal responsibility" PC trap that bedevils many in the liberal media - and, no, I'm not going to apologize for calling them liberal). However, there is new evidence that Walker has freely admitted to training as a terrorist in the Al Qaeda camps and even claims to have met his personal hero, bin Laden.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/673497.asp?#exclusive
In other mainstream media coverage of this degenerate's actions, he has cheered the September 11 attacks, has advocated overthrowing the US government and replacing it with strict Shar'ia law, and may have participated in the prison revolt that resulted in the death of CIA agent Mike Spann (although this isn't entirely clear). The really disgusting thing about all of this: He may get off the hook completely because no one in the military probably bothered to read him his Miranda rights before interrogating him.
Here's a really chilling thought for all of you who are still nursing comforting delusions about the Al Qaeda and bin Laden: While many of us have been silently practicing profiling on airplanes and in crowded venues, casually looking for men of obvious ethnic origins, the Al Qaeda has probably been training many terrorists who are of American, European or even Oriental ethnic origins (converts to radical Islam, like Walker) to carry out some of their attacks. You can worry about the Mohammed Atta look-alike sitting across from you on the plane, but who would think twice about the nice looking young John Walker after he has been cleaned up and dressed anonymously in his Tommy Hilfeger's?
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2001 : 13:24:39 [Permalink]
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I think it's clear that Walker should not just be allowed on the streets again. What the US should have done is let the powers that be in Afghanistan mete out justice in the way they usually do. I'm sure they could whip up a military tribunal for him followed by execution and there'd still be time for a late breakfast.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2001 : 21:44:46 [Permalink]
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gezzam, sounds like your Tony Abbott (sp?) is by far more intelligent and far sighted than our own Ashcroft with regards to civil liberties.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2001 : 21:57:01 [Permalink]
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Apparently he also fought in Kosovo for the freedom fighters.....
His parents, friends, kids, ex girlfriends and whoever walked past him in the street in November 1986 have besieged by the media here trying to eek some kind of reason why he did what he did...next thing you know they will be selling their stories for a princely sum to New Idea, Who Magazine or the like....
Aaaaghhhh, lets all get our 15 minutes worth methinks
"Damn you people. Go back to your shanties." --- Shooter McGavin |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2001 : 04:44:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Garrette, you'd be surprised what can happen in a military court. I knew a kid at Ramstein who was tried for writing bad checks to the tune of about $5,000. His military defense attorney actually got him off. All he had to do was repay the money. The attorney convinced the court martial board that the kid was a totally incompetent dipshit. Innocent by reason of stupidity. My husband was fit to be tied.
Nah. I'm quite experienced with the military courts, as a commander, a witness, and a panelist. I think it was F. Lee Bailey who said that when he's the prosecutor he wants to try the case in a civilian court, but when he's the defense attorney he wants to do it in the military court.
I was a panelist for a fairly serious case against a young soldier (E-4). He had agreed to plead guilty, and on the face of it, he was guilty. I remember sitting there for over 30 minutes while the judge grilled this young man about the reasons for his plea, ultimately deciding that he would not accept it, I think because he harbored doubts about the prosecution's ability to actually prove the case. Eventually, we did find him guilty, then we spent two full days debating on the sentence (at this level, the panelists decide the sentence, not the judge). Every single aspect was dissected, discussed, debated, etc. for its equivalence to the level of the offense, for its impact on the future of the soldier (whether as a civilian or soldier), and for its consistency with past sentences.
My kids still love me. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2001 : 04:49:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think it's clear that Walker should not just be allowed on the streets again. What the US should have done is let the powers that be in Afghanistan mete out justice in the way they usually do. I'm sure they could whip up a military tribunal for him followed by execution and there'd still be time for a late breakfast.
Interesting, @tomic. So it's okay to let them do our dirty work?
The article about the lack of knowledge of the Taliban and Al Qaeda 7 months ago is interesting, but I think belied by the facts (to which Rubysue has already alluded).
And, still academically speaking because I agree that we still do not have enough info on specifics, I don't think it matters. It is not for the gummint to inform all its citizens individually of exactly when a nation/organization becomes 'the enemy', but rather the individual's responsibility to remain aware of the implications of their actions. "Ignorance of the law is no defense" is actually true, and I think applies here. But this is my own unsupported opinion.
My kids still love me. |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2001 : 05:32:42 [Permalink]
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While it may be true that, seven months ago, the Taliban, al Qaeda, and bin Ladin were not household words among Americans, they certainly were in the Islamic world. Walker could not have been unaware that those organizations were implicated in the embassy bombings and the USS Cole attack.
Other possible links (to the original WTC attack and to the Somalia debacle) may not have been common knowledge then, however.
Still, Walker should not be portrayed as a wide-eyed innocent. He was playing with fire, and he knew it.
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2001 : 08:15:56 [Permalink]
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If Walker is handed over for criminal trial in Federal court, it will make OJ's trial look like a picnic. It will be a show trial. It will be a media circus. The defense attorney will probably take Ashcroft to task for being a heavy-handed brute who walks (no pun intended) all over people's rights. Walker will be shoved aside and it will be attorney egos in battle for the limelight. The dim-witted, naive Walker vs. the Big Bad Gummint. ("Shut up Walker. This is your attorney speaking. You're a VICTIM. Remember that.")
Since Walker is being held on a Navy ship, there's still a chance they'll hold a man-overboard drill WITHOUT the floating dummy. 
(:raig |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2001 : 09:35:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Since Walker is being held on a Navy ship, there's still a chance they'll hold a man-overboard drill WITHOUT the floating dummy.
(:raig
Oh yeah, the kind where he goes over but isn't noticed missing 'til the next morning. Got it.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2001 : 11:14:25 [Permalink]
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Seriously, though. I see several issues about prosecuting the Walker case that could be deadlier than the land mines around the Kandahar airport.
1. Walker is small potatoes - He was basically a buck private in the Taliban army. He has very little status as an intelligence source. His prosecution would be much more symbolic than substance.
2. He is a U.S. citizen and as such was not informed of his Miranda rights and did not have an attorney present during the military debriefing. Therefore, use of any info against him that was gained during the interviews is questionable.
3. There is no precedent for this case. Walker did not knowingly engage with the "enemy" as the Taliban was not the enemy at the time of his recruitment.
4. If "small potaotes" is tried by a military tribunal, there will be screaming all the way to the Supreme Court.
5. This trial, if it comes to that, will be the first legal challange to Ashcroft's heavy handed anti-terrorism tactics. So, the big guns from both sides will be out in force. Walker will become the footnote. The legal issue will revolve around the participation of a U.S. citizen in a foreign military organization that found itself in a defensive stance against attacking U.S. forces. In other words, the legal defence will probably try to prove that desertion was not an option and will point to the murder of Afghan Taliban fighers by al Qaeda operatives as reasons why Walker could not easily surrender.
That's all the bleeding heart always-a-victim defense I can think of right now, but give me some more time.
(:raig |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2001 : 11:45:56 [Permalink]
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I'm in virtual agreement, Mespo, but on the academic side again, I think your point about Miranda is off-target.
Miranda applies when, and only when, the three following conditions apply:
1. The individual is suspected of a crime.
2. The individual is 'in custody' (meaning he is not free to leave), by a LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY.
3. The LEA intends to question the individual about the crime he is suspected of committing.
On the surface, these apply, but the military is not and cannot be construed as a law enforcement agency, per Posse Comitatus.
Yes, it's murky, but while I can foresee these being tossed around, in the end it would have to be shown as a red herring.
That being said, I'm all for something deflating Ashcroft and his tactics.
My kids still love me. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2001 : 11:58:16 [Permalink]
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I'm not sure I understand the issue over Miranda Rights for the reason that Garrette points out.
This is and will be a military issue - or should be, IMO.
Is there something about defecting to another country that's applicable here? Is Walker required by US law to recind his citizenship with the US through US channels? If not, could he not then claim to be a POW rather than an *American* committing treason?
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2001 : 12:29:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
If Walker is handed over for criminal trial in Federal court, it will make OJ's trial look like a picnic. It will be a show trial. It will be a media circus. The defense attorney will probably take Ashcroft to task for being a heavy-handed brute who walks (no pun intended) all over people's rights. Walker will be shoved aside and it will be attorney egos in battle for the limelight. The dim-witted, naive Walker vs. the Big Bad Gummint. ("Shut up Walker. This is your attorney speaking. You're a VICTIM. Remember that.")
Since Walker is being held on a Navy ship, there's still a chance they'll hold a man-overboard drill WITHOUT the floating dummy.
(:raig
Lemme guess. They'll also tack on a charge of stealing 300 pounds of anchor chain, right?
Seriously, the only question that is outstanding is not whether or not he did these things. The question is did he renounce his citizenship before joining the Taliban. Citizenship is not like a cap which you can put on or take off when it is convienient.
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