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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
 Posted - 12/16/2001 : 22:46:28
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After reading the Jesus mysteries and viewing many web pages on the subject, I find other pages refuting the fact that there is no link between Mithras and Jesus. One such page is
http://www.equip.org/free/DB109.htm
I have found others also that support this view also. From what I am reading, it says that the origins of Mithraism date to the 3rd or 4th century BCE. So then who is telling the truth.
The link to which I gave also lists Franz Cumont as support to there being no link between Mithras and Jesus.
Some help please.
"It's a dog eat dog world, and I'm wearing milkbone underwear." Norm
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2001 : 23:22:17 [Permalink]
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Thhere has been a lot of discussion about the Jesus Mithra connection here on the SFN forum. Try this link or do a search for Mithra:
Did Jesus Really Exist?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2001 : 18:06:10 [Permalink]
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Thanks @tomic, but I have read these debates probably 3 times, I agree fully with Slater and all his findings. I have read many pages on the net that support Slater's info. But now I find other pages that show contrary information, although I am quite sure that the information provided is taken completely out of context, it makes it damn hard to debate a subject when this type of B.S. is being served to the "faithful Christians" If I say that their sources are not trustworthy, they say the same to me. They make me nuts. I do not have any where near the arsenal that Slater has but I'm working on it.
I find it quite amusing, debating with them, I have been called the anti christ, the devil incarnate, and one even went as far as saying that I was the prophesied nay sayer that will come just before judgement day. For a while I was feeling pretty important.
The main thing I am concerned with is when I give information to back my arguement, that it is at least accurate.
"It's a dog eat dog world, and I'm wearing milkbone underwear." Norm |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2001 : 17:09:26 [Permalink]
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There is a wonderful line in Macbeth where a character is completely flummoxed by the literal mindedness of a peasant gatekeeper.
"Oh, how absolute the knave is!"
That's how I feel about CRI's Ronald Nash. His logic runs along the lines of West Side Story is not another version of Romeo and Juliet because there were no dancing Puerto Ricans in Verona and the girl doesn't die at the end.
I suppose that I have no cause to be surprised. CRI treats mythology in the same deceitful way that they treat any other science. Let me touch on a few points.
Basic Traits
Nevertheless, the mystery religions exhibited five common traits.
(1) Central to each mystery was its use of an annual vegetation cycle in which life is renewed each spring and dies each fall. Followers of the mystery cults found deep symbolic significance in the natural processes of growth, death, decay, and rebirth.
Such as the feast of the goddess Easter (sometimes spelled Ishtar) and the death and resurrection of her consort.
(2) As noted above, each cult made important use of secret ceremonies or mysteries, often in connection with an initiation rite. Each mystery religion also passed on a "secret" to the initiate that included information about the life of the cult's god or goddess and how humans might achieve unity with that deity. This "knowledge" was always a secret or esoteric knowledge, unattainable by any outside the circle of the cult.
From this one must not construe that all religions were "mystery cults." Mithraism was not but it did have an initiation rite (unlike Judaism-snip, snip) which was called baptism.
(3) Each mystery also centered around a myth in which the deity either returned to life after death or else triumphed over his enemies. Implicit in the myth was the theme of redemption from everything earthly and temporal. The secret meaning of the cult and its accompanying myth was expressed in a "sacramental drama" that appealed largely to the feelings and emotions of the initiates. This religious ecstasy was supposed to lead them to think they were experiencing the beginning of a new life.
"Experiencing the beginning of a new life" in these pagan religions might easily be referred to as being born again.
(4) The mysteries had little or no use for doctrine and correct belief. They were primarily concerned with the emotional life of their followers. The cults used many different means to affect the emotions and imaginations of initiates and hence bring about "union with the god": processions, fasting, a play, acts of purification, blazing lights, and esoteric liturgies. This lack of any emphasis on correct belief marked an important difference between the mysteries and Christianity. The Christian faith was exclusivistic in the sense that it recognized only one legitimate path to God and salvation, Jesus Christ. The mysteries were inclusivistic in the sense that nothing prevented a believer in one cult from following other mysteries.
Processions, fasting, purification, esoteric liturgies…he left out incense and chanting. He also left out why being inclusive (respecting) the beliefs of others is a negative thing.
(5) The immediate goal of the initiates was a mystical experience that led them to feel they had achieved union with their god. Beyond this quest for mystical union were two more ultimate goals: some kind of redemption or salvation, and immortality.
And this differs from Xianity just how?
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RECONSTRUCTING THE MYSTERIES
It is not until we come to the third century A.D. that we find sufficient source material (i.e., information about the mystery religions from the writings of the time) to permit a relatively complete reconstruction of their content. Far too many writers use this late source material (after A.D. 200) to form reconstructions of the third-century mystery experience and then uncritically reason back to what they think must have been |
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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2001 : 22:26:24 [Permalink]
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Thanks Slater.
I will continue reading and researching.
This group has been a big help to me. I have spent much time reading the debates, completely enthralled in the brilliant exchanges that take place here.
"Let me off the plane,I am no missionary, I don't even believe in Jebus..... Oh Jebus please help me." Homer J. Simpson
"It's a dog eat dog world, and I'm wearing milkbone underwear." Norm |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2001 : 10:00:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Thanks Slater.
I will continue reading and researching.
You're most welcome.
I must admit that I have never read any of the books that you've mentioned that support my position. I tend to shy away from buying that sort of thing. And, frankly, when I started my research back in the 60's such books weren't available.
I only heard about Mithra because a magazine article on Christmas mentioned that he had the same birthday as Jesus. Being interested in mythology I read up on him.
Dr Franz Cumont did most of the basic work on him back at the turn of the twentieth century. Cumont was a Belgian Roman Catholic and was so shocked to find a pre-dating Jesus story that he spends a good part of the book denying it. He denys it on a point by point basis--many points that I would have missed had he not brought them up.
His argument was that even though Mithra is hundreds of years older than Jesus Mithra is a myth and Jesus actually lived. The stories being the same were the work of the devil--aslo a historic character.
But Jesus is more than just Mithra. He also has parts of the Dionysus story added. And he performs the miracles of Apollonius of Tyana --and takes the title "Christ" from him too.
Mary was a triune goddess of the Galatians (which is why all 3 Marys show up at the crucifixion--the 3 aspects of the goddess: Virgin, Nymph and Crone).
The conversion of Paul is lifted dialogue and all from a popular stage play about Dionysus. And the Acts of the Apostiles were taken from pulp fiction of the time. The cannibal Kings daughter episode probably gave that away already.
I suggest that you don't trouble your head with arguments pro and con for a mythic base to Christianity.
Just read the actual myths, with an open mind, and decide for yourself.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2001 : 19:48:09 [Permalink]
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Slater:
I did set out to buy the books you originally mentioned to me, however I live in a small city pop. 46,000 and did not find anything even close to resembling what you suggested. So I took a trip to my nations capital and still did not find the Franz Cumont book. I tried the local library and nothing either. Perhaps I will have to order it on the web.
"Let me off the plane,I am no missionary, I don't even believe in Jebus..... Oh Jebus please help me." Homer J. Simpson
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2001 : 20:14:14 [Permalink]
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rickm, try through the Tattered Cover on the web. They purchase independently through the different publishers and might be able to get it for you.
[Now if only I could remember to use the spell check or a dictionary. Fixed some spelling errors.]
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain
Edited by - Trish on 12/20/2001 10:25:49 |
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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2001 : 21:53:14 [Permalink]
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Just ordered it through Chapter.ca.
Should have it in 5-10 days
Thanks again
"Let me off the plane,I am no missionary, I don't even believe in Jebus..... Oh Jebus please help me." Homer J. Simpson
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2001 : 14:07:15 [Permalink]
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A joyous and Merry Mithramas to all !!!
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2001 : 19:20:27 [Permalink]
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heh, I've been saying that the last couple of days. I was wondering if I had the courage to put up a sign (to rival my neighbor's) that said "Happy Birthday, Mithra!"
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2001 : 19:48:10 [Permalink]
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Check this out!
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2002 : 18:10:31 [Permalink]
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From the link:
quote:
The flowering of Mithraism occurred after the close of the New Testament canon, much too late for it to have influenced anything that appears in the New Testament.9 Moreover, no monuments for the cult can be dated earlier than A.D. 90-100, and even this dating requires us to make some exceedingly generous assumptions. Chronological difficulties, then, make the possibility of a Mithraic influence on early Christianity extremely improbable. Certainly, there remains no credible evidence for such an influence.
It's amazing how people will tell you something that is so easily refuted, seemingly without care as to how it will look to their credibility.
A simple Google search will turn up countless references that completely contradict this quote, from University sites to authors, with countless more references on these sites.
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2002 : 18:31:06 [Permalink]
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Yeah, but you know what they will say...
"You can't trust the Satan controlled media"
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2002 : 18:47:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
A simple Google search will turn up countless references that completely contradict this quote, from University sites to authors, with countless more references on these sites.
I can understand them not doing a web scearch but the Bible says that Mithrains brought baby Jesus baby shower presents. Why do they always skip that?
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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