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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
 Posted - 01/24/2002 : 09:38:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
May I ask a few questions, purely to satisfy my own curiosity?
What does this being think about? Are there subjects independent from this being that require its thought? Do you think this being can be logically reconciled? Does this being need to be worshipped?
Answer any, all, or none at your leisure.
1) It understands that good and evil aren't black and white, but shades of grey.
Does it understand these things because it created, or is in some way responsible for them?
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2) Most likely.
So there are things (subjects) that exist that have not been created by this being?
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As for the last two, no and no. I take a more "Conan the Barbarian" approach. It gives you life, but what you do with it is up to you entirely. Just be ready to take the consequences of those actions.
How are we to know what the consequences are if the decision to worship is up to us entirely?
Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things. - Silent Bob |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2002 : 16:43:06 [Permalink]
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I'm at a bit of a loss here Kaneda Kuonji. My SFN baloney detector-- decoder ring just started buzzing.
You say that there is a being and that it's thinking?
So I take that to mean that you are privy to it's activities. If you know that's it's doing something, like thinking, then you must know that it exists.
Please prove it.
If you are unable to do that please explain why you say that you know what it is doing.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Kaneda Kuonji
Skeptic Friend
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 04:10:27 [Permalink]
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I suppose I owe an explanation. I have grown disillusioned with organized religion in general, but by the same token, still believe in the concept of a greater being.
However, I also feel that this one is probably more flexible in matters than most would lead to believe.
After all, most religions have numerous principles in common:
1) Any evil action done will come back to bite you. This is found not just in Christianity, but in virtually every other religion made.
2) Most have a code of conduct, like the ten commandments or certain sayings in the Koran. These tend to be fairly vague. Example: If you kill in self-defense, have you violated a commandment? How about if you must lie to protect someone?
Point is, it's VAGUE!!
3) Most, but not all, have a special rule: YOU WILL NOT FORCE ANYONE INTO ANOTHER RELIGION. Why all-caps? This addendum is the most frequently included, but also the most flagrantly violated. One need not look any further than events like the Inquisition or, more recently, the WTC bombings.
Those who do these things have a mindset along the lines of: "Well, my religion is the only right one, so everyone else is wrong." And thus, these loonies find an excuse to condemn everyone else, and, occasionally, strap a bomb to their chest and take as many "infidels" with them as possible.
4) But, all religions also tend to have wisdom that is useful.
Examples:
1) The search for enlightenment, as seen in the Tao and Buddhist religions.
2) Nietzschean concept: Don't expect God to spoon-feed you, but rather, think for yourself, because no one else will.
3) Wicca: Respect Earth, after all, it isn't like you'll find another planet to live on anytime soon.
My reason to try and start a debate is as a way to compare notes, and see what else to add. All religions have good points if you can find them, and using these good points can be a lot more effective than just sticking to a single church.
Rodney Dean, CI Order of the Knights of Jubal
Ivbalis.org
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 04:59:26 [Permalink]
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I think, Kaneda, that many or even most here will agree that there are portions of most religions that have much to commend them, just as there are portions of most businesses and most non-religious organizations and most every group that ever forms.
The distinction, however, is that admitting the quality of certain aspects of a belief system does not equate to acceptance of the conclusion, nor does it justify leaping to another conclusion--namely, that there is a Supreme Being.
No one here begrudges you your belief; many will in fact admit that you could possibly be correct. But the points you present do not constitute a logical argument.
If I may be so bold as to distill what you said:
1. Most or all religions have many similarities.
2. Many of the similarities are 'good' or 'worthwhile' or 'wise.'
3. The existence of these good similarities demonstrates the existence of a supreme being.
4. The supreme being exists but in a form different from the forms espoused in the religions from which I took the similarities supporting my conclusion.
Sorry. I don't think it follows.
Actually, I think you've got a decent starting point to form a hypothesis, but you are quite a long way from being able to say that your hypothesis has been demonstrated in any way to have validity. To do that, you must answer some of the questions posed.
My kids still love me. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 11:00:06 [Permalink]
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I… still believe in the concept of a greater being. However, I also feel that this one is probably more flexible in matters than most would lead to believe.
Other than the preaching of these religions, which you reject, what is there that even suggests that there are entities called gods? Have you seen any gods? That's not a sarcastic question, only a rhetorical one. I already know that you haven't and I'm trying to point out that you have abandoned logical thinking.
After all, most religions have numerous principles in common: Which is exactly what one would expect from purely human organizations that shared the same goals of control.
1) Any evil action done will come back to bite you.
A truly wonderful; and unique for the movies; scene in The Godfather I There is the Godfather, murder, thief, destroyer of untold numbers of lives, and he is very old. He is sitting in his garden enjoying an orange and a glass of fine wine. A beloved grand child (representing his immortality) entreats him into some little child's game. At this perfect blissful moment he drops dead without warning, without pain. A perfect, peaceful death.
Evil, in the real world, as in this one movie, does not come back to bite you. Not unless it is people who punish you.
The world is amoral. If you are the worst fiend imaginable nothing will happen to you. There is no karma, people get away with murder every day.
2) Most have a code of conduct, like the ten commandments or certain sayings in the Koran.
The only religions that claimed to be the source of morality were those like Islam, Judaism and Christianity that were arms of a secular government.
In classical Greece and Rome (when it still had religious freedom) moral teachings did not come from religion. Rather they were the territory of the Philosophers. In those days Philosophers were a kind of proto-scientist and saw different moral teachings as aspects of nature and the natural world.
3) Most, but not all, have a special rule: YOU WILL NOT FORCE ANYONE INTO ANOTHER RELIGION.
This was true of the Jews because they considered themselves above and apart from everyone else.
This is not true of Christianity which from the very beginning used physical force to convert "Pagans." Nor is it true of Islam or Hinayana Buddhism or Mahayana Buddhism.
I think that you are confusing the freedom of religion that you enjoy in the United States with religious teachings.
4) But, all religions also tend to have wisdom that is useful.
Again something that you would expect from a purely human institution.
1) The search for enlightenment, as seen in the Tao and Buddhist religions.
You seem not to know that bodhi or enlightenment is the negation of "self."
2) Nietzschean concept:
Not a religion, but a philosophy. It was Friedrich Nietzsche who, prematurely, declared that the concept of god was dead.
3) Wicca: Respect Earth, after all, it isn't like you'll find another planet to live on anytime soon.
Reductio ad absurdum. You need to read what the Wiccians are saying about themselves.
All religions have good points if you can find them, and using these good points can be a lot more effective than just sticking to a single church.
My question wasn't "how do you know that religion exists." There is no problem at all proving that.
The question that was posed to you was 'can you prove that the god whose actions you describe (he's thinking) exists?'
The very existence of this being is what is in question. Because you appear to be guilty of the same things that you say that you are writing a book to expose in Creationists. You are telling us of god's actions and motives when you have no way of knowing what they are. You have never seen or heard from any gods.
If you have no way to prove that you are telling the truth then you can have no way of knowing you are telling the truth. That means that you are lying.
If at sometime in the future it should turn out that what you were saying were actual facts you would still be lying. Because you have no way of knowing if you are telling the truth as you are telling it.
And that is immoral.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 15:12:44 [Permalink]
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I've been following this with intrest.
It has always been a curosity to me, how someone can say emphaticly that a supernatural entity that he might have seen only in hallucinations and only knows from texts written by superstitious zealots, exists.
Alas, I'm still not enlightened. Probably never will be.
Is there such a being as a 'god'? Well, it's a VERY big universe, and in such a place, there are VERY many possibilities. So, sure, maybe. Why not?
And if one, why not two? Or five; or why not an entire population of supreme beings, each one jealously guarding it's picayune territory like a fence swift on a flat rock (mating season could be a wonder to behold It is with the lizards. Much scurrying about, and posturing. Sometimes, fighting).
In the days of their conception, religons were, for all pratical purposes, the governing philosophsy. They held societies, that had had little knowledge of much beyond their small part of the world, together. Anyone who disagreed was pretty much against the whole society, a primitive mindset that is obviously and glaringly with us today. Indeed, in today's society, this mindset has, in many cases become outright destructive.
Therefore, returning to the topic, I think that the athiests and agnostics hold individual freedoms in greater esteem, followed by pagans, et.al. It stands to reason. We are not shackled by dogma.
My tuppence.
f
The more I learn about people, the better I like rattlesnakes. |
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Kaneda Kuonji
Skeptic Friend
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 18:13:53 [Permalink]
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I am about to do something most people would never do in regards to religion.
I shall say: "I don't know."
That's right, at this point I honestly cannot answer the questions presented to me. If I was trying to dodge the question, and I was, then I honestly apologize for it. I do this not to appease the people here, but that I sincerely acknowledge that I have made mistakes, and no small number on top of that.
In addition, I am a Criminal Justice major at Marshall University, and thus lack the expertise to make these judgements.
But, based on what I have found thus far, there are two possibilities below, but feel free to add more.
1) That, at one point, there was a common religion. But, as humanity grew scattered, these became separate and independent religions, and whatever the almighty was had been altered as a matter of convenience to those in power.
Who knows, this may be the actual story behind the Tower of Babel.
2) This possibility is especially true of Christianity, and is a trend that developed much more recently. To gain followers from other regions, certain traditions were assimilated into the mainstream religion, thus adding to them an element of familiarity to the people in question. Examples include Easter and Christmas, both of which were pagan holidays.
Again, feel free to add more. This has the premises of a promising discussion.
Rodney Dean, CI Order of the Knights of Jubal
Ivbalis.org
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 19:11:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
I shall say: "I don't know."
I hope you don't start to feel picked on, but we get few people here who will say they definitely believe a god exists who don't end up being drive-by posters, so you will most likely get many different people asking you questions if you stick around (which I hope you do!)
So I must ask you this: Are you saying you don't know if a god exists, or you don't know why you know?
You stated earlier that you believed in a Supreme Being, and also claimed that this being had the capability of thinking. Do you stick by this claim?
And to your points:
1. There is an assumption here that people evolved in one place, as one group, and stayed this way until sometime after some sort of religion developed. I think you'll have a hard time proving that one...
2. Forgive me, but what are you claiming that this is a possibity for/of?
[Maybe we should move this to the Religion forum?]
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Sum Ergo Cogito
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 01/25/2002 19:12:14 |
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Kaneda Kuonji
Skeptic Friend
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 20:20:16 [Permalink]
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Tokyodreamer, rest assured I am sticking around for the time being. You can't get rid of me that easily!
As a note, I'm not here to convert anyone, and when I speak my mind, I only ask that I be allowed to do so freely.
One could say that I am in a crisis of belief, and that mainstream religion, in all honesty, has not been worthwhile in my search. I do not believe that the Bible, or any other religious text, is infallibe.
Though the texts have their insights, they were still written by man, and everyone knows how man makes mistakes.
Rodney Dean, CI Order of the Knights of Jubal
Ivbalis.org
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 20:46:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
2) This possibility is especially true of Christianity, and is a trend that developed much more recently. To gain followers from other regions, certain traditions were assimilated into the mainstream religion, thus adding to them an element of familiarity to the people in question. Examples include Easter and Christmas, both of which were pagan holidays.
The funny thing is, this is how Christianity develped. You seem to be saying that Christianity is the end result and really it's more like somewhere in the middle and Christianity is probably going to be replaced by some religion that takes some popular aspects of Christianity and incorporates them into its system. I say this because that's basucally how all the current religions came to be.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 21:33:38 [Permalink]
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Rodney, or Kaneda, whichever you prefer, may I ask how you came upon your beliefs? We skeptical atheists tend to be rather adept at dealing with most forms of personal incredulity, if that is what you are dealing with. You might share some of your concerns about the nature of existence with us. I hope I speak for others when I say you have earned a measure of respect and your thoughts will be treated with such.
Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things. - Silent Bob |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 21:46:27 [Permalink]
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Kaneda, so sorry, but you never answered the question.
When you say "I don't know", what knowledge are you claiming to lack?
That a Supreme Being exists?
Or that you don't know why you believe in a Supreme Being?
(And I'm glad you are sticking around  )
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2002 : 04:01:14 [Permalink]
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Kaneda, I must say that I agree with PhDreamer, and am happy that you chose to share your opinions in this forum. I, also, agree with Tokyodreamer in being curious as to why someone would choose to believe in a supreme being. I've muddled through some of the ideas of people like William James and Alfred Adler years back, and I've even touched on a few of the recent ideas of the evolution of belief, but sadly, I still feel something missing. Maybe, it's just me, but I would be curious as to your feelings about this matter.
Plus, have you looked into the Unitarian-Universalist Church? Your 'search' appears very much like that of many UU's. (My wife drags me to this church sometimes, and I don't complain. I find it very interesting)
We have imagined ourselves invulnerable and have been consumed by the pursuit of ... health, wealth, material pleasures and sexuality... It [terrorism] is happening because God Almighty is lifting his protection from us.
-- Pat Robertson |
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Kaneda Kuonji
Skeptic Friend
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2002 : 09:11:32 [Permalink]
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When I said, "I don't know," I meant in particular about the Greater being (or beings, they can be plural).
I was only 10 years old when I had to join a church.
As a soon-to-be former Latter-Day Saint, we had the concept of apotheosis: As we are now, so God was one day. As God is, so shall we be one day.
But what keeps that from meaning that God isn't the only one in the Universe? Or that there is even one, for that matter? That is what I want to find out. If there is only one God, then that eliminates apotheosis, and if God was once one of us, it means that he wasn't perfect, and thus eliminates the concept of the perfect deity most scripture claims him to be.
The more I read into it, the more I have to wonder.
As for my reply to Pat Robertson's quote: If God was watching over us, why didn't he prevent the attacks on the embassies in Kenya and Tanzania? Or the one on the USS Cole?
If this God views all humans equally, why do preachers make people dress up for Church? We may as well go as we are throughout the week.
These are the paradoxes that leave me disillusioned with organized religion.
I would, however, like more information on the Unitarian-Universalist church. Sounds like it may be worth checking into.
Rodney Dean, CI Order of the Knights of Jubal
Ivbalis.org
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2002 : 22:58:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
When I said, "I don't know," I meant in particular about the Greater being (or beings, they can be plural).
You don't know if it (they) exist(s) or you don't know if you actually believe in it (them)?
quote:
I was only 10 years old when I had to join a church.
Hm, you seem to think this is rather young, but I stopped going about at about 10. I'd think most children of religious parents will have joined a church by age 10.
quote:
As a soon-to-be former Latter-Day Saint, we had the concept of apotheosis: As we are now, so God was one day. As God is, so shall we be one day.
But what keeps that from meaning that God isn't the only one in the Universe? Or that there is even one, for that matter? That is what I want to find out. If there is only one God, then that eliminates apotheosis, and if God was once one of us, it means that he wasn't perfect, and thus eliminates the concept of the perfect deity most scripture claims him to be.
This seems like it might be an intriguing dilemma if it did not also beg the question. In any case, are you still concerned about it even though you are renouncing your Latter-Day Sainthood?
quote:
The more I read into it, the more I have to wonder.
As for my reply to Pat Robertson's quote: If God was watching over us, why didn't he prevent the attacks on the embassies in Kenya and Tanzania? Or the one on the USS Cole?
If this God views all humans equally, why do preachers make people dress up for Church? We may as well go as we are throughout the week.
These are the paradoxes that leave me disillusioned with organized religion.
Well, apologetics has nearly become a full-fledged industry because of dilemmas like these. That tells me that we skeptics aren't the only ones who notice them.
Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things. - Silent Bob |
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