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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 12/20/2001 : 06:50:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Eddings?
Eddings?!
EDDINGS??!!!!!
Sheesh. I admit it's been over a decade since I read any of his stuff, but it struck me as downright amateurish and plagiaristic. I'm shocked at your taste.
(Not that I have an opinion, mind you.)
My kids still love me.
Well, just keep in mind that Eddings one of the more popular authors that usually get recommended to and read by people who are new to the genre. He's one of the "gateway" authors. It gets you hooked, and there's no turning back.
He was one of my first, and I absolutely loved it at the time (though even then the attitudes that Eddings gives to Polgara and Belgarath grated on me; they're so damn arrogant and rude sometimes!). In retrospect, I can respect your opinion, but I will always hold a special place in my heart for The Belgariad and The Mallorean. (His Sparhawk series was just a copy, really).
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 06:55:18 [Permalink]
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This is our 1 per cent disagreement, then.
I think the problem for me is that my introduction to the genre was LoTR, so I had high expectations.
I'm also one of the few who dislikes The Shanarra series.
I haven't read any fantasy in many years, though, with the exception of the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. A co-worker forced me to read the first in the series, which I reluctantly slogged through. I thought it amateurish and ponderous. But I agreed to read the second where it became obvious the author was improving as he went. Now I've voluntarily read all of the 9 completed works and am waiting for the last. It will have to be monstrously long, though, for him to resolve all his threads to any satisfaction.
Oh, yes, and Pratchett. Nearly anything by Pratchett. "Guards! Guards!" made me laugh harder than anything else I have ever read.
My kids still love me. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 07:25:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think the problem for me is that my introduction to the genre was LoTR, so I had high expectations.
That would do it!
quote:
I'm also one of the few who dislikes The Shanarra series.
This was my first fantasy author (after reading The Hardy Boys almost exclusively, which gave me a love of reading). Again I can see that if you had read Tolkien first, this wouldn't have been as impressive as it was to me. I just picked up a copy of "The Wishsong of Shannara" in my school's library (6th grade), and couldn't put it down.
*SPOILER!*
When Allanon died, I actually cried! I had never experienced a book like this before!
quote:
I haven't read any fantasy in many years, though, with the exception of the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. A co-worker forced me to read the first in the series, which I reluctantly slogged through. I thought it amateurish and ponderous. But I agreed to read the second where it became obvious the author was improving as he went. Now I've voluntarily read all of the 9 completed works and am waiting for the last. It will have to be monstrously long, though, for him to resolve all his threads to any satisfaction.
I quickly got bored soon into the second book, and haven't picked it up again. Recommendations I hear are about 50-50 that it's a horrible waste of time, to it's one of the greatest series ever. Maybe I'll try again someday...
quote:
Oh, yes, and Pratchett. Nearly anything by Pratchett. "Guards! Guards!" made me laugh harder than anything else I have ever read.
I'll have to check that out. If you want some good fantasy, that isn't the typical formula, check out George R. R. Martin's Game of Thrones series. The third book is about to be out in paperback, and it looks as if this is going to be a Jordan-esque epic series...
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 07:39:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'll have to check that out. If you want some good fantasy, that isn't the typical formula, check out George R. R. Martin's Game of Thrones series. The third book is about to be out in paperback, and it looks as if this is going to be a Jordan-esque epic series...
I will check it out. I highly recommend "Guards! Guards!" It brilliantly spoofs all the cliche's of the fantasy genre. All his stuff is comic, and most is well worth reading, but IMO "Guards! Guards!" is miles above the rest.
I also recommend some early books in the Sanctuary series which was written by various authors using each other's characters. The first one's are very engrossing, though I can't remember names.
Jordan's Wheel of Time became worth reading about the 4th book. His characterizations became much better and believable as did his descriptive sense. What I am enjoying about it most, though, is the global turn it took. Not in quality, mind you, but in breadth it does rival LoTR and possibly surpasses. Political maneuverings of various powers and how personalities play into it and how there's no obvious line between some of the bad guys and some of the good guys. Neat stuff. Not classic stuff, just neat stuff.
My kids still love me. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 09:31:35 [Permalink]
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Game of Thrones by Martin is one of my favorite novels of all time. Every book in that series has led me deep into all night reading sessions. It is an incredibly detailed look into a feudal society. I could never wait for the paperback version. I want every one of those in hardback ASAP 
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 15:51:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
I highly recommend "Guards! Guards!" It brilliantly spoofs all the cliche's of the fantasy genre. All his stuff is comic, and most is well worth reading, but IMO "Guards! Guards!" is miles above the rest.
And anything with the three witches. I love Granny Weatherwax.
I think I have all of Pratchett's books.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 20:37:29 [Permalink]
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OK, it has now been almost 24 hours since viewing LOTR:FOTR and how do I feel about the movie? I can't wait to see it again - I've been thinking about it all day, going over the various scenes (and scenery) in my mind. Quite the film...
Final evaluation: Overwhelmingly positive and eminently enjoyable. As a rather fanatical Tolkien fan, I can nitpick a few things, but the beauty of film in this day and age is that the director can save the deleted scenes for the awesome DVD home version, so I can look forward to Peter Jackson tacking on another hour when FOTR is released on DVD. By the way (believe it or not), The Hobbit, LOTR and the Silmarillion are the only fantasy books I've ever read (I've actually started others, like the Shanara series, but quit early because they just didn't compare).
As to my rather cynical comments that were included in my first post, here's a rant-like explanation, if anyone is interested:
Ever since I had the idiotic audacity to challenge the "great" Gnome Chomsky and other radical leftists on this board in recent months, I have realized that no topic or issue is sacred to those that practice the ultimate politically correct multiculturalism (nor are contradictory viewpoints tolerated - I've learned my lesson, by the way, and will no longer poke at the rattlesnakes). In my many hours of web surfing about the war on terrorism, I stumbled across some excellent war blogs written by a variety of professional and amateur journalists from a broad spectrum of political views. Some of these blogs also address other current events and topics and several of them were shocked in recent weeks when the Sydney Morning Herald (SMH) ran an opinion by one of their regular columnists deriding "Lord of the Rings" (and Harry Potter) as racist and essentially pro-Nazi. Imagine my horror reading this trash - Gee, I never realized that Orcs and the Uruk-Hai were the victimized subjects of racial discrimination; I always thought they were fictional monster characters that were a plot device to give a vivid non-human face to evil. Of course, the joyless bastard who wrote this garbage has been severely taken to task not only by readers of the SMH, but by columnists from other papers worldwide and Tolkien fans everywhere (ol' JRR, by the way, loathed the Nazis and their perversion of European civilization). There was another column in the UK Guardian recently sneering at all of the adults that actually still like Tolkien (like, grow up, you know, done in the best British cynic voice that you can imagine). I've included a link to the SMH article for those that are interested.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/0112/13/opinion/opinion3.html
Another of my childhood heroes, Walt Disney, was also the subject of a snide and derogatory analysis recently in the Washington Post to mark the occasion of his 100th birthday; the author really couldn't find anything wrong with the visionary and workaholic Disney, but he delighted in the fact that many people gag on Disney's innocent messages and rather vigorous marketing schemes and he smirked at the nasty rumors that have flourished about Disney since his death (none proven, by the way).
My conclusion from all of this? I'm as skeptical as anyone on this board, but I'm getting quite tired of the postmodern deconstructionism that rampages throughout the media and academia. Everything can be decomposed into a trivial societal artifact and tagged with the "racist" label just for the hell of it (or it's childish or "unrealistic" or artificial kitsch or it takes us away from working really, really hard to resolve all of the world's problems, which are naturally all caused by the United States). The deconstructionist attitude is strangely reminiscent of the Taliban - their perpetrators work vigorously to remove the joy and wonder from life (this includes science, by the way; deconstructionist-oriented sociologists have no use for hard science and discovery, considering it just another tool that can be used to create language and political systems that oppress).
As for me, I will continue to enjoy reading LOTR (and waiting eagerly for the next movie) and watching classic Disney flicks, but I do it now armed with the knowledge that there are more than a few in our society's elitist class of opinion makers that consider me to be a brainwashed and tasteless (and racist?) member of the unwashed proletariat. Makes me sad...
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 21:56:28 [Permalink]
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Okay, wait a minute. How did that guy get the impression that the LOTR was racist or pro-nazi? JRR took the Norse lit and Wagner's Ring cycle and basically threw it back in the Nazi's teeth. Okay, I'll assume this particular author has never heard of Norse mythology or any of Wagner's operas. Still, you'd have to be illiterate not to miss the good vs evil, freedom vs oppression message. Maybe he heard about LOTR from a friend of a friend who's third cousin (by marriage) had a plumber who's wife had a dog that once ate a copy of the Hobbit.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 23:44:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Okay, wait a minute. How did that guy get the impression that the LOTR was racist or pro-nazi? JRR took the Norse lit and Wagner's Ring cycle and basically threw it back in the Nazi's teeth. Okay, I'll assume this particular author has never heard of Norse mythology or any of Wagner's operas. Still, you'd have to be illiterate not to miss the good vs evil, freedom vs oppression message. Maybe he heard about LOTR from a friend of a friend who's third cousin (by marriage) had a plumber who's wife had a dog that once ate a copy of the Hobbit.
Lisa
:-) Funny.
And you know, LOTR/FOTR, Hobbit, Luke Skywalker, Kirk & Spock, Aryn Sun...George Orr? Well...I'm reminded of Joseph Campbell's book, The Hero With a Thousand Faces. Great ideas therein.
Ah, the epic story. There are always those who want to deride the great or monumental ideas, or pervert them. (I recall someone on another board who called me all those names for defending Albert Einstein!)
BTW, here's a link to a little item concerning Tolkien's son's approval of the books in a cinema version. http://www.realnames.com/programs/popunder_dist.html
Chip
"I'd never join an organization that would have a man like me as a member." |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2001 : 00:55:04 [Permalink]
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Well, just saw the movie today - loved it. Agree with rubysue a movie to sit and watch many many times. Hopefully the DVD lives up to rubysues expectations.
Those who don't read scifi/fantasy don't understand the level of social commentary in these books. rubysue I think its a case of not wanting to peel through the layers of these kinds of books. Ah well. Love to hear your opinions on these things rubysue.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2001 : 07:49:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
I've included a link to the SMH article for those that are interested.
This person is an utter moron. I'm sure a psychological case study on this individual would be fascinating. But I think I can imagine a profile from this article:
Sour face, usually scowling or frowning. Very self-righteous. Noses around, looking for "injustice", even the slightest hint, in the anticipation of being able to point and shout, "Look what I've found! Aren't I a wonderful person, and aren't I so smart and compassionate for being able to recognize eeeviiil when I see it?!"
This kind of person, in the Dark Ages, was called an "Inquisitor". Give them the power, and I believe they would follow this same path.
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2001 : 14:04:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
This person is an utter moron. I'm sure a psychological case study on this individual would be fascinating. But I think I can imagine a profile from this article:
Sour face, usually scowling or frowning. Very self-righteous. Noses around, looking for "injustice", even the slightest hint, in the anticipation of being able to point and shout, "Look what I've found! Aren't I a wonderful person, and aren't I so smart and compassionate for being able to recognize eeeviiil when I see it?!"
This kind of person, in the Dark Ages, was called an "Inquisitor". Give them the power, and I believe they would follow this same path.
I agree completely, Tokyodreamer. If these folks are ever put in charge of our lives, then I'm sure they would commit purges that would make Stalin cringe, because they can point at every social construct in the Western world (literature, classical music, individual rights, democracy, science, etc.) and immediately condemn it as false, racist and oppressive because it is logocentric, Eurocentric and grew from a "patriarchial" society.
By the way, I didn't mean to turn this into a diatribe against deconstructionism, but I have to post a link to a classic example of the supreme idiocy and incomprehensible prose of those who subscribe to this mode of thinking. Here is a thesis deconstructing Newton's Laws and labeling them as irrelevant and oppressive social constructs that are really no longer valid because they "impose" a series of rules that are based in a selected social order that is not valid in every world view (at least that's the gist I get from this crap, although what it really means is anybody's good guess if you can wade through the bullshit). And I quote from the article:
quote:
This deconstruction of ‘Newtonian text,' which demonstrates that the presumed causality of external forces in classical physics indeed is a social construct (as postmodern sociology claims all theory to be), refutes the presupposition of natural science about the objectivist foundations of modern scientific discourse.
So, everything can be deconstructed to a subjective social construct, which is dependent on the social order of the viewer (and no one culture or social order can ever be deemed superior to another; indeed, the discoveries and physical laws of European and American scientists are actually imperialist and oppressive because they "mechanize" the world and destroy its humanity and ecosystems). So, in other words, because the primitive tribes of New Guinea did not also independently discover the Newtonian laws of physics, then they are not subject to them (I guess they can ignore the laws of gravitation, F=ma and angular momentum). The blithering, babbling idiot who wrote this crap casually dismisses the physical laws of non-relativistic motion (which have yet to be disproven) primarily because they were discovered by a white, male native of England and are based in a "coercive power" that will eventually lead to the destruction of "subjective realities" (ala "Star Wars", where the subscribers to classical physics and its outcomes are really the oppressive empire minions who are destroyed by those in the "rebel alliance" or academic left, New Agers, fundamentalists and radical environmentalists).
So, we toss classical physics out the window because it is a tool of oppression and coercive power. What utter and complete nonsense.
http://theoryandscience.icaap.org/content/vol002.001/05zaman.html
I haven't read anything this obtuse sinc |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2001 : 14:14:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
I haven't read anything this obtuse since the last Chomsky press release; I would assume it was a joke if I didn't know the source of the information. By the way, the same blogger who pointed me in the direction of this article also noted that there have been academic roundtables held recently to deconstruct Martha Stewart and show how she is an agent of "colonialism" barring the gates from the "inferior heathens" who would destroy our culture (and I thought she just liked to create recipes and tidy house ideas).
What I have noticed is that a lot of people include "bitching" as their main hobby. Call it deconstructionism if you want. I just think a lot of unhappy people have too much time on their hands and, instead of doing something constructive themselves, prefer to tear down the hard work of others for no other reason than to further their own narrow interest and to make themselves feel better(superior).
This sort of reminds me of that old story about how you can start the Dark Side of the Moon by Pink Floyd after a certain number of minutes into the Wizard of Oz and the soundtrack seems to fit. It's part coincidence and part perception. I am sure Pink Floyd never intended it and I bet you have to stretch your imagination to make it fit.
I hope that made sense 
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2001 : 15:02:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
What I have noticed is that a lot of people include "bitching" as their main hobby. Call it deconstructionism if you want. I just think a lot of unhappy people have too much time on their hands and, instead of doing something constructive themselves, prefer to tear down the hard work of others for no other reason than to further their own narrow interest and to make themselves feel better(superior).
Well said, Atomic! I agree with the observation and the dense prose of the deconstructionist academic lends itself to this sense of superiority.
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2001 : 15:07:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
...BTW, here's a link to a little item concerning Tolkien's son's approval of the books in a cinema version. http://www.realnames.com/programs/popunder_dist.html
Chip
That link went to a U.K. Sci-Fi/Fantasy website and it must have been an "unpinned catid" - in other words, going there now leads to something different. (An advertising banner.) I don't know the web address, so in a nutshell, Tolkien's son saw nothing wrong with LOTR being made into a movie. He did say that there are many factors to determine if a film version is successful. (Not his words. I'm paraphrasing.) His Dad sold the rights to film makers several years before he died.
Well that's it, in case anyone is remotely interested. And I have little comment on nitwit, pseudo-intellectual interpretations of fantasy fiction, music, and art by socio-political pseudo-pundits. (Nobody in this thread - just quoted within a post.)
Still recommend Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces as best philosophical commentary on fantasy fiction and legends, if anyone wants to dig in that direction.
Chip
"I'd never join an organization that would have a man like me as a member." |
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