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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 07/28/2006 : 17:53:25 [Permalink]
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I forgot to respond to this.
Gorgo wrote: quote:
Again, you take twists and turns on the subject. You talk about how bad fundamentalism is because of things like Abortion and Creationism. Those things are politics as much as war is.
Not even comparable! Are you kidding? We were talking about religion, and when it is a force for good or evil. There are no atheists or moderate religious folks blowing up abortion clinics or lobbying for Intelligent Design to be taught instead of evolution. Those are stances, political as well as personal yes, but exclusive to fundamenatlist nutjobs who don't even attempt to use reason to defend their stance. They use only the Bible and faith and think they are specially chosen by God, given a special gift of faith through grace. That goes way beyond politics.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 17:56:53 [Permalink]
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Again, you are the one insulting religious people by calling them fundies, and insulting me because you aren't able to understand my opinion calling me arrogant and condescending.
It is your lack of ability to understand which brings you to this point, not my arrogance and condescension. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 20:51:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Again, you are the one insulting religious people by calling them fundies, and insulting me because you aren't able to understand my opinion calling me arrogant and condescending.
Yes, I'm insulting a particular group of religious group by calling them fundies. I refer to the religious right. The fucknuts who want to poison our public schools with nonsense, keep gays in the closets and bathhouses, and take women's liberation back a few decades. And as long as they stick their noses into my business and the business of my friends and family by politically lobbying to impose their whole bleeding crazy-ass worldview on the whole of society, I will continue to viciously criticize them. I get so upset when Dawkins puts a moderate, progressive Christian on par with these nutjobs because the Muslims extremists and Christian fundamentalists that don't mind their own damn business are dangerous and detrimental to society. To extend that criticism to people like Rev. William Sloan Coffin, Rev. Barry Lyn, Rev. Martin Luther King, Bishop John Spong, and all other theistic activists for peace and tolerance is just plain sick. That's why I wrote the letter I did to Dawkins, and that's why I posted my letter on SFN. It amazes me that my - very polite and complimentary I might add - letter has inspired so much antagonism on this forum, as to extend to 10 pages, and pehaps beyond. It really amazes me.
quote:
It is your lack of ability to understand which brings you to this point, not my arrogance and condescension.
Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing about you. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 21:24:11 [Permalink]
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You forgot to add bring about the Apocalypse, Marf.
I'll go back and re-read the letter. Give me a minute. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 21:24:46 [Permalink]
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Ricky said:
quote:
The claim "A god might exist" is true whether a god exists or not. The only time such a claim is not true is when you can show it is impossible for a god to exist, or you can show that a god must exist.
That is utter nonsense.
If the truth value of a claim is unknown, then it is simply unknown. Just because YOU don't know what it is does not, in any way, grant the claim a chance of being true. Particularly in the case of claims that lack supporting evidence. You cannot evaluate the probability of a claim being true unless you have some evidence.
If some claim has an unknown probability of being true, that in no way equates to it having a non-zero probability of being true.
marfknox said:
quote:
a bunch of woowoo bullshit nonsense followed by an insulting tirade
Whatever.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 21:28:01 [Permalink]
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Otherwise, Ricky, you will have to say that there is some chance that invisible pixies are actually responsible for gravity, and that the IPU might indeed be in my livingroom.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 21:37:16 [Permalink]
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I found the letter very good even though I didn't see the program. Your points were important.
On the religion as an infectious meme, while I didn't see the program, my understanding wasn't that such a meme is necessarily passed on by parents. There are a multitude of factors which dictate whether a particular meme infection will occur. What I liked best about the meme concept of religion was the meme was self perpetuating and self preserving separate from the person. The idea of martyrdom means the meme's survival becomes more important than the organism's survival.
Some guy on another forum had a long discourse with me claiming meme theory wasn't predictive and as such wasn't a valid scientific concept. There were many links to criticisms of Dawkin's meme concept. I find the concept predictive and a useful way of conceptualizing the collective mind. Then there were arguments about whether such a thing as a collective mind exists. Anyway...I digress. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 07/28/2006 21:38:16 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 21:42:32 [Permalink]
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| beskeptical, oh I wasn't trying to imply that meme theories are invalid. I just think Dawkins was taking it farther in the show than he could back up with evidence. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 01:47:08 [Permalink]
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Actually, the need to call people "fucknuts" comes from the same place as the need to create gods. We, as humans, get the idea that we're not worth very much, so we put others down. We all do it. We, as humans think we're not worth very much, so we create fantasies in an attempt to get worth, or increase our worth.
That's not putting anyone down, that's saying we're all the same, and we all need to watch the tendency to do it and try not to act from that place. It's ridiculous to call me condescending or arrogant when I say that, because I say we all do it. I'm not sure it's possible never to do it to some extent.
No one, not Dawkins, not Harris, agrees with the politics and tactics of those who try to make the U.S. a theocracy, and no one would say that these views are the same as those of whoever it is they agree with. No one is saying that working against criminal wars and for civil rights isn't a better idea than working against them. No one is saying that suicide bombing is the same as prayer vigils. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/29/2006 01:49:34 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 04:16:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Not even comparable! Are you kidding? We were talking about religion, and when it is a force for good or evil. There are no atheists or moderate religious folks blowing up abortion clinics or lobbying for Intelligent Design to be taught instead of evolution. Those are stances, political as well as personal yes, but exclusive to fundamenatlist nutjobs who don't even attempt to use reason to defend their stance. They use only the Bible and faith and think they are specially chosen by God, given a special gift of faith through grace. That goes way beyond politics.
Dear Person, fundmentalists are not the only people in the world that commit crimes and cause problems in the world. I agree that many of their stances are dumb ideas, if, in fact, it can be said that they all have ridiculous stances on every subject.
Most of the people in prison believe in god in one way or another. Are they all fundamentalists?
Sounds like you agree with Dawkins.
Good or evil? This is the realm of those that are "spiritual." Aren't they the only ones who split the world up this way? No. They're not. That's my point. Atheists have dumb ideas too. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 05:03:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Actually, the need to call people "fucknuts" comes from the same place as the need to create gods.
You think? I believe you're over-complicating the issue somewhat. Some people are fucknuts. Calling 'em so, on occasion, is quite cathartic.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 07:46:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox:
I get so upset when Dawkins puts a moderate, progressive Christian on par with these nutjobs because the Muslims extremists and Christian fundamentalists that don't mind their own damn business are dangerous and detrimental to society. To extend that criticism to people like Rev. William Sloan Coffin, Rev. Barry Lyn, Rev. Martin Luther King, Bishop John Spong, and all other theistic activists for peace and tolerance is just plain sick.
I don't think Dawkins is putting progressive believers on a par with extremists. I think the problem is that the religious part of the extremists' motivations is not challenged by other believers. Because the progressives don't want their irrational belief in a diety to be challenged, they give the extremists a free pass in that area.
Even our Idiot-In-Chief, after that early unfortunate "crusade" remark, has heeded his handlers and claimed that we are not in a war against islam. Jeez, we wouldn't want to offend the suicide bombers by insinuating that their insane religious beliefs are at least part of the problem. Although oil/money/power may be the neocon's main motivation, I think there is still a good bit of "my god is better than your god" thinking going on.
MLK may likely have been the same force for social change with or without a god belief. Likewise Phelps, Falwell, and Robertson would most likely be despicable infected pustules on the butt of humanity even without their god beliefs. But they are given a veneer of legitimacy because nobody, other than athiests, will challenge the irrational belief at the core of their insanity. If the vast majority could laugh out loud when Putrid Pat calls for his god to smite some homo-loving area with a hurricane, because the very idea of a supernatural being was recognized as the nonsense that it is, then these dirtbags would have absolutely no influence on society. As long a the progressives legitimize the very concept of belief in imaginary friends, and make that belief sacred, we will have fundamentalist whackjobs of various flavors making the world a dangerous place.
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The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 08:23:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
You think? I believe you're over-complicating the issue somewhat. Some people are fucknuts. Calling 'em so, on occasion, is quite cathartic.
Some people are damaged beyond repair. I wouldn't call them fucknuts, I'd call them damaged and I'd like to try learn to deal with them based on that idea. Some people have things to learn, just like I do, and I would like to learn to deal with them on that basis, rather than trying to deny my anger by blaming them for it. Mainly because I have things to learn, and I'd like others to figure that out about me, rather than assume that I'm not worth very much because I do things they'd prefer I didn't.
Idiots and fucknuts aren't about what's out there in the world. It's how we see the world. It's about blaming others for our anger. Our anger about most of it is our inability to accept ourselves as we are. That is not to say that anger is bad, or that we're not all going to have anger to some degree. We're just built as fragile, isolated, needy beings who often don't think very much of ourselves and our lives, so we look for ways to attempt to gain worth by rejecting reality to some degree. Some anger, and even the stages of grief, may be completely inevitable, but are all based on making life unreal, as we believe we're not enough to cope with what's actually happening.
I disagree with the idea that we need to teach people that self-worth is gained by doing worthy things. I think we need to teach people that self-worth is irrelevant. Instead, we need to learn to appreciate life as much as we can, and appreciate what we can of others. We need to learn to act as though we already have worth, and look for ways to help others find theirs.
Am I always a good example of that? No. But I'm glad when I realize I haven't, and resolve to do better. I try not to sit and blame everyone else for my failings. For my inability to appreciate life just as it is.
That doesn't mean that we don't want to change things, that's one of the pleasures of life. But, finding preferences is a different process than finding fuckwits, or gods.
Is this all one person's stupid, uneducated opinion and therefore worthless? Sure. Who cares? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 12:59:39 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: quote:
Actually, the need to call people "fucknuts" comes from the same place as the need to create gods. We, as humans, get the idea that we're not worth very much, so we put others down.
What a load of bull. Using strong language can be very effective in criticism. Hunter Thompson made a damn career out of using such language in his sharp and brilliant social criticism. To quote dearly departed Hunter S. from “Jesus Hated Bald Pussy”, published in Kingdom of Fear: Loathsome Secrets of a Star-Crossed Child in the Final Days of the American Century:
quote:
We have become a Nazi monster in the eyes of the whole world—a nation of bullies and bastards who would rather kill than live peacefully. We are not just Whores for power and oil, but killer whores with hate and fear in our hearts. We are human scum, and that is how history will judge us…No redeeming social value. Just whores. Get out of our way, or we'll kill you.
Well, shit on that dumbness. George W. Bush does not speak for me or my son or my mother or my friends or the people I respect in this world. We didn't vote for these cheap, greedy little killers who speak for America today—and we will not vote for them again in 2002. Or 2004. Or ever.
Who doesn't vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? They flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid little rich kids like George Bush?
They are the same ones who wanted to have Muhammad Ali locked up for refusing to kill gooks. They speak for all that is cruel and stupid and vicious in the American character. They are the racists and hate mongers among us—they are the Ku Klux Klan. I piss down the throats of these Nazis.
And I am too old to worry about whether they like it or not. Fuck them.
This is a stunning example of over-the-top insulting language turned into a style and approach to social criticism that is, as John put it, quite cathartic. You say you would not call people “fucknuts”, but that is merely a choice based on taste. Perhaps all of the writings of Hunter S. Thompson would offend your tastes to the point where you couldn't stand reading his books, and there would be nothing wrong with that. But to make some judgment about the very use of such strong language in the first place is narcissistic because it assumes that everyone's tastes are like yours, and so if they are using some words you find offensive, they must mean them how you would have meant them if you used them. Language is inherently manipulative because it is a filter between the thoughts of the speaker and the understanding of the listener/reader. The cornucopia of words has endless nuances and connotations, and those are constantly evolving based on usage. So of course misunderstanding is not only extremely common, but it occurs on multiple levels of understanding, and that's a real bitch. I do think that we have failed to understand each other in this conversation. Both of us have failed to understand the other in many ways.
However, when you make a broad-brush statement like “the need to call people "fucknuts" comes from the same place as the need to create gods who reduce yourself to bad and ignorant psychoanalysis of someone you don't know very well (me), and you insult my intelligence by claiming to know my own mind better than I do. I'm not just some mindless dipshit who uses words carelessly, and I would think that after communicating with me as much as you have you would realize |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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