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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 07/29/2006 : 13:46:30 [Permalink]
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R. Wreck wrote: quote:
I don't think Dawkins is putting progressive believers on a par with extremists.
It might be splitting hairs to argue over whether he's putting them "on a par", but he's already explicitely stated that he regards all religious faith as "dangerous and detrimental", that benign religious beliefs are a slippery slope that leads to fundamentalism, and that he wants to "cure" it. Reverend Richard Harries certainly felt attacked and betrayed by Dawkins - so much as they wrote about in the newspaper. If you get a chance to watch the show, notice how the Reverend is quite friendly and happy to be interviewed by Dawkins, and then suddenly things change, and the Revend looks hurt and confused. When he speaks to defend his point of views, the audio of his explanation cuts out and is replaced by a voice-over of Dawkins' summarizing the analyzing the progressive Christian point of view from his atheistic point of view.
quote:
I think the problem is that the religious part of the extremists' motivations is not challenged by other believers. Because the progressives don't want their irrational belief in a diety to be challenged, they give the extremists a free pass in that area.
Anyone making such a claim is not paying enough attention. Progressives have constantly been challenging fundamentalism just as intensely as secularists. It does not get as much media attention in America because the media tends to polarize for the sake of getting ratings, I guess. I really don't know why they don't get more attention. But progressive Christians are certainly not hesitating to criticize fundamentalism.
Examples to support this argument:
-The Clergy Letter Project, which managed to get 10,000 signatures from clergy opposing the teaching of Creationism in Dover, PA, and launched a new holiday to be celebrated in churches: "Evolution Sunday". http://www.butler.edu/clergyproject/clergy_project.htm
-A widely circulated television ad put out by the United Church of Christ which prominently featured gay couples being welcomed into the congregation.
-Organizations such as the Christian Alliance for Progress and Americans United for Separation of Church and State - both of which create coalitions of believers and nonbelievers that specifically target fundamentalism that engages in politics.
-the article in Orion that I already posted:http://www.oriononline.org/pages/om/05-4om/Duncan.html (Did anyone read it?)
-The best selling books of Bishop John Spong, including Saving the Bible from Fundamentalism
-Obviously the St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church in Austin doens't feel threatened by atheism since they let Robert Jensen, an open atheist, join their congregation. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 15:41:13 [Permalink]
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| Nowhere did I say I wouldn't use the word "fucknuts," had I thought of it, nor did I say I wouldn't use the word "bullshit." Nor am I criticizing anyone for using such terms. Don't know where you get some of the ideas you get. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/29/2006 15:42:09 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 16:22:33 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: quote:
Nowhere did I say I wouldn't use the word "fucknuts," had I thought of it, nor did I say I wouldn't use the word "bullshit." Nor am I criticizing anyone for using such terms. Don't know where you get some of the ideas you get. (my emphasis)
I'm becoming more and more convinced that somehow my responses to you are getting filtered into a bizarro dimention (you don't have a goutee, do you?), because you keep saying I said things I never said. Of course if you quoted where I said these things, there might be some legitimacy to the above paragraph. So, please quote where I...
a.) claimed you said you wouldn't use the word "fucknuts"
b.) claimed you said you wouldn't use the word "bullshit."
c.) claimed you had criticized people for using such terms.
'cause here in reality I actually...
a.) accused you of inappropriately psychoanalyzing the reasons why I used the word "fucknuts"
b.) disagreed with that lame-ass psychoanalysis by pointing out that the tone of the discourse had naturally and normally escalated (which I don't think reflects anyting about anyone's "need" to disparage others to gain a sense of "self worth".)
c.) bitched at you for having changed the subject.
No doubt you will twist this clarification into something entirely different too.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/29/2006 16:25:11 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 18:36:23 [Permalink]
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| "You say you would not call people “fucknuts”, but that is merely a choice based on taste." |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 18:47:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
language in the first place is narcissistic because it assumes that everyone's tastes are like yours, and so if they are using some words you find offensive....Doesn't mean I will succeed to get across what I intended, but do not reduce me to some mental patient in Gorgo's office of psychoanalysis. To use Humbert's term, it makes you look like a real asshole.
If you accuse me of finding such things offensive, you are telling me that I somehow criticized the use of such words. If you think I am calling you a "mental patient" for using a particular word, that tells me that you think I'm criticizing the use of such words. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 23:03:21 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: quote:
I wouldn't call them fucknuts...
See page 10.
You are right, Gorgo. You didn't criticize the use of the word, you just told me how I meant it and why that was bad. But I am not creating a fantasy by denying my anger and blaming it on fundamentalists. When I said they were fucknuts, I meant, merely, that they were fucknuts, and you are the one who changed the subject by reading into that and misinterpreting my perspective based on jack shit other than your own soap-box ideas about self-worth.
Sometimes a cigar is just a fucking cigar. And sometimes it is perfectly appropriate to call someone a fucknut without revealing some underlying screwed-up fantasy mentality.
To repeat what John said: quote:
I believe you're over-complicating the issue somewhat. Some people are fucknuts. Calling 'em so, on occasion, is quite cathartic.
(Edited to add quote from John) |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/29/2006 23:09:02 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 23:29:19 [Permalink]
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Seriously, Gorgo, do you even remotely recognize what you are doing here? Take these passages from this entry: quote:
Some people are damaged beyond repair. I wouldn't call them fucknuts, I'd call them damaged and I'd like to try learn to deal with them based on that idea.
Here you imply that just because I called them "fucknuts" that I don't also consider them damanged or that I might also like to try to learn to deal with them based on that idea. You just assume "fucknuts" and "damaged" are mutually exclusive perspectives, when it is really just a difference in vocabulary.
Then you spin off into your soap-box - that you've brought up in other threads - even though it has nothing to do with what we were discussing here:
quote:
Some people have things to learn, just like I do, and I would like to learn to deal with them on that basis, rather than trying to deny my anger by blaming them for it. Mainly because I have things to learn, and I'd like others to figure that out about me, rather than assume that I'm not worth very much because I do things they'd prefer I didn't.
Idiots and fucknuts aren't about what's out there in the world. It's how we see the world.
It's about blaming others for our anger.
Here again, you imply that if people merely use the words "idiots" and "fucknuts" that they are expressing an unhealthy mentality that reveals their own lack of a sense of self worth. Sometimes people are to blame, and there is nothing delusions about being angry at them. If someone sexually molests my cousin, I'm going to be angry at that person (among having many other feelings, obviously) and that anger would have not a goddamn thing to do with my own sense of self worth. Expressing it by calling the perpetrator mean names would not be evident of any "fantasy".
quote:
Our anger about most of it is our inability to accept ourselves as we are.
See, and this is the shit that really pisses me off because you aren't really pointing out any specific behavior of anywhere here, I guess, unless you are still going on about my use of "fucknuts", but either way, even if you apply this to yourself, you are still being a condescending asshole. I have no bloody problem accepting myself as I am, but how the hell would you know anyway since you don't exactly know me, do you? I think we can all agree that everyone has some problems with self-worth. And I also think we could agree that some peoples' problems with self-worth are a lot worse than others. But if you are not actually pointing out anyone's behavior here as being evidence of such a personal flaw, then what the hell does that have to do with this conversation?
quote:
Some anger, and even the stages of grief, may be completely inevitable, but are all based on making life unreal, as we believe we're not enough to cope with what's actually happening.
Huh? Anger is an emotion, not an articulated thought or claim about reality, so it can't make life "unreal". In addition, how you are connecting all anger with a belief within the angry person that they are not enough to cope with what's happening?
quote:
I disagree with the idea that we need to teach people that self-worth is gained by doing worthy things.
Who the hell here was talking about self-worth other than you? quote:
I think we need to teach people that self-worth is irrelevant. Instead, we need to learn to appreciate life as much as we can, and appreciate what we can of others. We need to learn to act as though we already have worth, and look for ways to help others find theirs.
So are you saying that my criticisms expressed in the Dawkins letter were not an attempt to appreciate others? Are you saying that anyone here has promoted anything other than actions which are done as though humans already have worth? Or are you really just having a conversation with yourself?
There, are you satisfied? You've fully hijacked this thread and brought it to your little soapbox. Now entering Gorgoland. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 23:46:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
You are right, Gorgo. You didn't criticize the use of the word, you just told me how I meant it and why that was bad.
I know that some would criticize me for engaging in a 2,000-plus post argument with Mozina, but at least words like "photosphere" have specific technical meanings that can be supported with references. In other words, it's pretty amazing where this thread has gone with less than 8% of the posts of the indisputable record-holder. I'm going to have to read through this thread again, do some forensics, and figure out where it all went wrong. Wow. Just, wow. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 00:23:15 [Permalink]
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In response to Dave: Well, it's been 11 pages now, and I got to admit that I'm not sure what Gorgo's disagreements were about the letter or what exactly are all the issues we're going back and forth on are about. It seemed to start with him saying I was wrong about fundamentalist beliefs being potentially dangerous to human welfare while progressive religious beliefs are benign. I then attempted to back up my argument with reason, and he demanded a purely scientific approach (studies that fundies do more bad stuff - which is dumb since such studies wouldn't show whether or not the beliefs themselves were the motivation for said bad stuff, but I digress) which is not possible on the subject due to a horrendous lack of sufficient info. He then rejects my argument using his own unscientific reasoning. No doubt misunderstandings abound!
Ah, the soft sciences!
I had a pretty awesome exchange with all the other people that got me thinking and really helped me articulate some of my thoughts on this subject. I got what I wanted out of it, and since most of the other people seemed to have dropped out, I figure this thread is gonna peter-out pretty soon.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/30/2006 00:24:58 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 02:44:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
You are right, Gorgo. You didn't criticize the use of the word, you just told me how I meant it and why that was bad.
I was right, and I also clearly said that it wasn't bad. You lead people all over the place and then tell them they're hi-jacking the thread. No one cares that the thread was hi-jacked, because no one knows what the point of the thing was anyway. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 03:17:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
I then attempted to back up my argument with reason, and he demanded a purely scientific approach (studies that fundies do more bad stuff - which is dumb since such studies wouldn't show whether or not the beliefs themselves were the motivation for said bad stuff, but I digress)
So, she is making statements for which there is no reasonable evidence, and when I request such evidence, I'm daft? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 03:39:31 [Permalink]
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I like Dawkin's analogy about believing one is Napoleon.
This is not about denying art or love, this is about denying reality and reason.
I think no one can now know (although this can be measured in a lot of ways) the incalculable damage done by less extreme religions.
In my mind, more severe, because it's less obvious.
But again, I would say that religion itself is just one of the symptoms of a greater problem, which I would guess we all have. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 04:11:44 [Permalink]
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Again, a point I've made before, but I'm watching the film and I have to say it again. There is much wringing of hands in the film about how dangerous this religious extremism is, and to a certain extent that is true. But again, count how many Arabs have been killed by the more "progressive" West, and how many Westerners have been killed by Arabs. Not to say that these extremists wouldn't love to kill and don't have the power.
Now someone will say that the more progressive "West" did not mean to kill "innocent" Arabs and "extremist" Arabs meant to kill "innocent" civilians. That's just a lot of noise. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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