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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 07/27/2006 : 23:16:06 [Permalink]
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Dude wrote: quote:
I'm not sure what "ethical culture" is,
A type of organized Humanism with a different name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_culture
quote:
but every other religion you listed does indeed make some claim about the world which, on analysis, is a scientific claim. Mostly that the world/universe was created by some supernatural being or some form of life after death. Anyone who makes a claim about the nature of the universe, or some portion of it, is making a scientific claim.
This makes no sense to me. The claim that there is some supernatural being that humans label “God” is not necessarily a scientific claim. Nor is the claim that humans have a soul. Those are not, by definition, claims about the natural world, and science deals purely in facts about the natural world. The fundamentalist claim that the Biblical flood is literally true is a scientific claim. Another example would be claims that the supernatural can be explained or proven by science (such as trying to claim proof of a soul by weighing a body right before and after it dies and seeing if it loses weight.) That sort of thing does cross the line into scientific territory, and such, must abide by scientific rules or be blatantly irrational.
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I think, perhaps, that you are offended by Dawkins and it has clouded your reasoning ability
What reason do I, a total materialist, atheist, naturalist, Humanist, have to be offended by Dawkins? Don't you think I'd love it if things were this simple? It would be so much easier to believe atheists have this whole monopoly on reason; that I'm on the right side.
quote:
with regard to this particular statement. Seriously, you don't think that the claim of karma, rebirth, life-after-death, heaven/hell, or even the existance of a supernatural creator... are claims about the universe?
That's hilarious – you actually wrote “supernatural”. Dude, supernatural things are – by definition – not natural, and thus, not able to be studied by science. If you want to call all those supernatural concepts silly, fine. But to say they are scientific claims just doesn't make sense.
I think part of our miscommunication here has to do with the abuse of the word “supernatural”. If someone claims they have the supernatural power to read minds, they might not be making a supernatural claim at all. They might be really making an extraordinary claim. If they think their power can be explains naturally, then they are indeed making a scientific claim, and thus, not supernatural.
Gorgo wrote: quote:
It's disappeared to a large extent because of science. Few adults believe that they can consistently make it rain by praying.
Methinks you are not talking about religion. If what you meant was that beliefs that supernatural forces interfere with the natural world have disappeared to a large extent because of science, then I agree with that and think that to be an example of philosophical and religious progress.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/27/2006 23:26:50 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2006 : 23:23:26 [Permalink]
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marfknox said:
quote:
The claim that there is some supernatural being that humans label “God” is not necessarily a scientific claim. Nor is the claim that humans have a soul. Those are not, by definition, claims about the natural world, and science deals purely in facts about the natural world.
All explanations or observations about the nature of any aspect of the universe are scientific.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2006 : 23:32:48 [Permalink]
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Dude, did you even bother to read my whole post or did you just stop after that paragraph to do one of your typical responses of "Nuh uh"?
Do you give a crap about people understanding each other in a conversation and exchanging ideas for the sake of deeper understanding, or are you just constantly in debate mentality?
You know, I give up. Your opinions are clearly the right ones. There is no debate over the definitions of words such as "agnostic" and "supernatural". The people who use those words in ways that are different from what Dude says they mean are obviously totally wrong. All hail brilliant Dude, master of semantics. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2006 : 23:59:53 [Permalink]
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Proof that I'm not the first person to have the concept that someone can be both a believer and agnostic simutaneously.
quote:
"I'm not sure what I believe. I believe in spirits. I believe in souls. But I'm not sure I believe the Bible is written by God and is true," Sinon says. "I'm more agnostic. I just believe if you are a good person and live your life as a human being who is kind to others and to animals, it's not such a bad thing not to belong to a church where people tell you how to behave."
From http://www.usatoday.com/life/2006-07-26-camp_x.htm
Words mean what they mean depending on how they are used and understood in context. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 02:16:26 [Permalink]
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Marf, I was using this definition of religion, and was careful not to use any other. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. I'm aware that there are other definitions, but as with everything else in discussion about religion, they only serve to cloud the issue. I'm not talking about everybody in the world with a world view, I'm talking about a certain group of people..
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Does it occur to you that some people say those things because they are responding to the grandeur of the universe and life, and thus, are moved enough to feel the presence of something greater than themselves
The response is something like this. "Certainly, this is a beautiful thing, so therefore some greater being must have created it because this thing can't be enough in and of itself, and my appreciation of it as itself cannot be enough to give it enough appreciation. I must have something 'greater than myself' in order to give it worth, in order to give myself worth."
There is no need to create something "greater than myself" to give myself worth. In fact, there is no "greater than myself" without some predetermined set of values written in stone. There is no such thing. What makes that thing "greater than myself" other than my view that I'm not worth very much?
Now you might go into a spiel about how MLK II got into causes "greater than himself" and how that was all caused by his belief in some supernatural thing. No. Not everyone who believes in supernatural things did what he did. If he did something positive, it was in spite of his rejection of reality, not because of it. What he got involved in was only larger than himself because it affected more than just his own immediate needs, and not because it was on some larger cosmic scale of worth than himself. If he gave what he did any real value, then that was because he gave it value, not because some god reached down from the heavens and gave it value.
(later edit for to divide one paragraph into two) |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/28/2006 05:47:18 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 02:18:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Could be that I am too hot and tired and not angry enough at the moment to care… 
All the people who are wondering about religion in the world will now be disappointed not to receive the final answer from you. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 02:46:28 [Permalink]
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Marf, there was probably a better way for me to say the cobweb thing. I can see how that remark may have seemed less than helpful. It wasn't meant as disrespectful.
This may not be a correct representation, but it shows the struggle. You said something like, "you can't prove or disprove religion with science." Then I say something like, "tell me what you're claiming, and we'll see if it can be proven or disproven." Then you say something like, "there is no one claim." Then I have to say something like, "well, make one claim then."
And what it seems like is we have to do that for each tiny little aspect of every discussion. It's a lot of work. I'm not saying it's your fault, it just becomes like trying to find a thread in a tangle of cobwebs, and that's what I was trying to describe. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 02:47:45 [Permalink]
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| I don't think anyone can say something is "unknowable." In order to make that claim, the person making the claim would have to know something about the thing that is purportedly 'unknowable.' |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 05:09:32 [Permalink]
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Sure you can, what particular configuartion of atoms existed in the 10 trillionth ant born?
Id say that is unknowable, as with many things in the past.
Also, How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop? |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 05:29:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Sure you can, what particular configuartion of atoms existed in the 10 trillionth ant born?
Id say that is unknowable, as with many things in the past.
Also, How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop?
I don't know that it is impossible not to some day figure out the answers to those questions, and the questions themselves are posited precisely because we do know something about ants and tootsie roll pops. You are stating questions for which the answers are probably not important enough to for us ever to take the time to resolve, not questions to which the answers are forever unknowable. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 05:44:21 [Permalink]
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Maybe it would be make more sense to say that in order to state that something that presently exists is unknowable it would be necessary to know something about it.
Or maybe whatever the hell I just said is unknowable. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 06:56:28 [Permalink]
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| Maybe we'll find the code to our Matrix and my answer will be spelled out. Stupid soliphisms, they make my head hurt. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 07:08:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Maybe we'll find the code to our Matrix and my answer will be spelled out. Stupid soliphisms, they make my head hurt.
quote:
"I admit, it is difficult to even think encased in this rotting piece of meat. The stink of it filling every breath, a suffocating cloud you can't escape. Disgusting. Look at how pathetically fragile it is. Nothing this weak is meant to survive.” -Agent Smith
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/28/2006 07:09:33 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 08:24:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
All the people who are wondering about religion in the world will now be disappointed not to receive the final answer from you.
Interesting. Because one of the points of my post is that we don't have a final answer. I was suggesting that rather than attack religion it might be helpful to figure out exactly what it is…
And Gorgo, I am more than capable of saying “I don't know” and I do that often. I have no idea how you got the idea that I think that I know everything. It was you who defined what religion is, not me…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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