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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 07/28/2006 : 08:36:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well, thank you for clearing that up for me. All of the people who are wondering what religion is should just be directed to your post I guess. Well done!!!
Well, I wasn't sure what you meant here. It seemed like you were saying that you finally got the final answer. Now you're telling me that you don't.
The final answer about what? What was the question? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 08:37:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I don't think anyone can say something is "unknowable." In order to make that claim, the person making the claim would have to know something about the thing that is purportedly 'unknowable.'
I substitute unknowable with not falsifiable in my thinking about the terms. It's less confusing. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 08:40:50 [Permalink]
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Better yet, but the term "agnostic" is based on knowledge. The idea that god is "unknowable" either means that they're saying that the concept of god is useless, or that whoever uses the term knows something about god enough to say that it is unknowable.
If it has no impact on the universe in a way that claims about it cannot by definition be proven or disproven, then it might as well not exist. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 08:42:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Me:
Well, thank you for clearing that up for me. All of the people who are wondering what religion is should just be directed to your post I guess. Well done!!!
quote:
Gorgo
Well, I wasn't sure what you meant here. It seemed like you were saying that you finally got the final answer. Now you're telling me that you don't.
The final answer about what? What was the question?
No, I was being sarcastic. It was a comment on your definition of religion. And somehow, I think you knew that was what it was. Sorry if I offended you again… |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 08:47:12 [Permalink]
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| Am I the only one having trouble with the quote feature? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 08:48:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
No, I was being sarcastic. It was a comment on your definition of religion. And somehow, I think you knew that was what it was. Sorry if I offended you again…
Another remark intended to wound? Why are you so afraid of me? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 08:49:19 [Permalink]
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| No, the quote feature is screwy. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 08:55:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
Another remark intended to wound? Why are you so afraid of me?
Yeah, I'm a real Gorgophobe... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 09:07:47 [Permalink]
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Odd, im a Gorgophile.
Really since god is not a well defined concept its hard to say anything worth a damn about the subject.
For example: If we are a simulation that could be run by the higher dimentional computer geek, would that geek count as a god even though he may be less god-like than we are?
Too many god-types I thinks, need to pick one and break it down then move on to the next. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 07/28/2006 09:11:14 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 09:20:38 [Permalink]
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I was always partial to Thor.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/28/2006 10:51:55 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 09:31:54 [Permalink]
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It's actually supposed to be a link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_(Marvel_Comics)
but for some reason this board doesn't like the () in links. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/28/2006 09:33:18 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 09:37:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Odd, im a Gorgophile.
Really since god is not a well defined concept its hard to say anything worth a damn about the subject.
For example: If we are a simulation that could be run by the higher dimentional computer geek, would that geek count as a god even though he may be less god-like than we are?
Too many god-types I thinks, need to pick one and break it down then move on to the next.
And I'm a Virgo with a bad moon rising.
How do you do? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 09:44:07 [Permalink]
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There are many imitators
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 10:12:47 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: quote:
Now you might go into a spiel about how MLK II got into causes "greater than himself" and how that was all caused by his belief in some supernatural thing. No. Not everyone who believes in supernatural things did what he did. If he did something positive, it was in spite of his rejection of reality, not because of it. What he got involved in was only larger than himself because it affected more than just his own immediate needs, and not because it was on some larger cosmic scale of worth than himself. If he gave what he did any real value, then that was because he gave it value, not because some god reached down from the heavens and gave it value.
Progressive believers do not “reject reality”. They reject pure rationalism, and that shouldn't be confused with rejecting reason.
You claim that MLK did positive things (positive things being things to improve the human condition) in spite of his spiritual beliefs, and then you back that claim up with “Not everyone who believes in supernatural things did what he did.” But not everyone is MLK. Only he is MLK, and indeed, maybe MLK did need to believe in supernatural things to do what he did. Everyone is different. You can't just say that peoples' religious beliefs don't have a connection to their behavior because people with similar beliefs act differently. There are tons of factors specific to each complex individual that will lead to whatever behavior. Certainly religious belief is one influence. I really doubt there would have been any murders of abortion doctors in America were it not for the fundamentalist belief about abortion. That is one reason it is, IMHO, critical to criticize fundamentalism in order to render it social marginalized. Likewise, religious ideas which seem to inspire a greater awareness about the world, that even promote scientific curiosity about the natural world, that preach equality of all people, cultivating compassion, should not be criticized as morally or intellectual inferior, and that is just what Dawkins has done.
quote:
This may not be a correct representation, but it shows the struggle. You said something like, "you can't prove or disprove religion with science." Then I say something like, "tell me what you're claiming, and we'll see if it can be proven or disproven." Then you say something like, "there is no one claim." Then I have to say something like, "well, make one claim then."
I see many of your questions like that as in-of-themselves missing the points I'm trying to make. It's like me trying to explain why I love my husband. Sure, I could sit here and list things we have in common, traits I tend to find attractive in men that he possesses, we could do a Freudian analysis of how he is like my father, but in the end, the sum of the things on the list would not best characterize the whole of my love for him. That state itself (which is more than a feeling since it encompasses a variety of feelings and perspectives that slowly change over time) is something entirely subjective to me, and it is best conveyed to others through stories, comparisons, metaphors, and behavior.
I'm not trying to confuse you or anybody else. I'm not being evasive. I really am trying to communicate something that is incredibly difficult to communicate, especially for someone like me who dominantly thinks like you – logically. I believe that is why I have the philosophical perspective of, and call myself, an atheist – because of the specifics of how I conceive reality. This is not to claim some woo woo extremist Postmodern concept of |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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