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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 07/28/2006 : 16:47:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Look around on this forum – religion in general is constantly attacked.
Not attacked, mildly mocked.
quote:
So let's just get this clear… you are ripping on me for being passionately outspoken about an opinion I hold that happens to be a minority on this forum. Yeah… that's a real flaw of mine.
I'm saying the habit you have of turning any post that even slightly pokes fun at religion into your personal soapbox is tiresome.
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Let me shrink back into the shadows when I have something to say like a good moderate atheist. Good thing there's people like you to keep us in line.
I believe you have already started a thread voicing your concerns on this issue that has garnered considerable dialogue, in which no one said you needed to "slink back into the shadows." It was your decision to bring your rant into this thread that I question.
quote:
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My list was more meant to point out the absolute insanity of your accusation that atheists are mindless sheep merely following consensual opinion.
I made that accusation?
Yes, you did. You said "Hey look, another atheist circle jerk" and "I'm a bit concerned at the level of atheistic re-enforcement going on that resembles group-think a little too much for my comfort."
quote:
Um, no. If I had made that accusation then I would be calling myself a mindless sheep.
Then you should choose your words more carefully.
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However, your list had nothing to do with atheists being mindless sheep or not. The only thing it illustrated was that there are a lot of Christians in America. Whoop-de-dooo.
Yes, there are a lot a christians in America and a lot of theists in the world, so it is hard to imagine how one could become an atheist in the current social climate without demonstrating a proven ability to think independently. Obviously the opposite of "groupthink."
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 17:14:37 [Permalink]
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I liked that site. I laughed my heinie off. For once, a good, clear answer.
But this is amazing, all this donnybrook here over the word, "No," while my wildly cranktankerous hypothesis that we may already be living in a dictatorship gets no more refutation than, essentially, "I disagree, Mooner." Nobody's even run it through the mandatory Crank Index!
Damn, I'm jealous! I'll have to try to come up with something as controversial as that "no" classic.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 20:57:15 [Permalink]
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My two cents.
Loved it. Some people are so clever.
It sort of drifts between humor and religion and science. I don't think it's entirely a joke give how the request for corrections is worded. Clever, yes, funny yes, but just a joke, no.
No it doesn't need "science" god FAQ either. There is only one god, the god of myth. Science addresses everything including many aspects of myths. It's a given it's a science FAQ, since there is no other legit god FAQ. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 21:57:38 [Permalink]
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Humbert wrote: quote:
Not attacked, mildly mocked.
Oh sheesh. OK, fine, I guess my phrasing was too harsh. How about in the spirit of compromise we agree on “constantly mocked, sometimes harshly yet other times in a lighthearted way”?
quote:
I'm saying the habit you have of turning any post that even slightly pokes fun at religion into your personal soapbox is tiresome.
I agree with you there. About an hour ago I actually used the word “soapbox” in another discussion to refer to my own rantings, so I can't disagree with you on this. I'm sorry that I have become tiresome to you. I will try to diversify and tone down my emphasis on this particular subject.
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I believe you have already started a thread voicing your concerns on this issue that has garnered considerable dialogue, in which no one said you needed to "slink back into the shadows." It was your decision to bring your rant into this thread that I question.
I think it is going to far to say I have ranted in this thread. I made a smarmy remark about an atheist circle jerk, which frankly, I think was funny, and I don't regret it.
quote:
(Humbert)that atheists are mindless sheep merely following consensual opinion
(Marf) I made that accusation?
(Humbert) Yes, you did. You said "Hey look, another atheist circle jerk" and "I'm a bit concerned at the level of atheistic re-enforcement going on that resembles group-think a little too much for my comfort."
Um, no sir, I have to still disagree with you. I never accused all atheists of being mindless sheep. I merely accused that of being a trend within atheistic subcultures. There is a difference.
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Then you should choose your words more carefully.
I chose my words perfectly carefully enough. I have said over and over and over again that I am an atheist myself, so obviously I couldn't be talking about all atheists when I've made my accusations. Clearly I am talking about a tendency in some atheists. I've also made this clear when I've used specifying adjectives such as “antagonistic atheists” or “angry atheists”. In regards to this conversation in particular, my circle jerk comment was meant lightly, and it was meant to be both humorous and as a way to open comment other than those which praised and agreed with the joke. I like the joke. I think it's damn funny. I just wanted there to be a variety of comments on it – and what I did worked.
So nyah.
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Yes, there are a lot a christians in America and a lot of theists in the world, so it is hard to imagine how one could become an atheist in the current social climate without demonstrating a proven ability to think independently. Obviously the opposite of "groupthink."
Well you obviously haven't had the experiences I've had, which include nearly 10 years of deep involvement with the freethought movement and secula |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 22:50:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
I love you people.
"You people?!?" What sort of horrible stereotyping are you doing now, Marf? Holy crap! "You people!" I am shocked and awed that your progressive self would use such backwards language! I...
Oh, damn, I can't keep going like that... I run out of steam too quick when I try to fake indignation. It takes real indignation to fuel me for a few paragraphs (or more) of ranting. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 23:19:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Oh sheesh. OK, fine, I guess my phrasing was too harsh. How about in the spirit of compromise we agree on “constantly mocked, sometimes harshly yet other times in a lighthearted way”?
Well, there is a difference and it isn't something to lightly gloss over.
quote:
I agree with you there. About an hour ago I actually used the word “soapbox” in another discussion to refer to my own rantings, so I can't disagree with you on this. I'm sorry that I have become tiresome to you. I will try to diversify and tone down my emphasis on this particular subject.
Appreciated.
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I think it is going to far to say I have ranted in this thread. I made a smarmy remark about an atheist circle jerk, which frankly, I think was funny, and I don't regret it.
Marf, although we've rarely seen eye to eye for very long, I have grown to respect your intelligence and zeal. But funny you ain't.
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I chose my words perfectly carefully enough. I have said over and over and over again that I am an atheist myself, so obviously I couldn't be talking about all atheists when I've made my accusations. Clearly I am talking about a tendency in some atheists. I've also made this clear when I've used specifying adjectives such as “antagonistic atheists” or “angry atheists”.
Fine. I mainly objected to your use of the phrases "circle jerk" and "groupthink" in regards to the behavior of atheists, especially the ones here at this site. Just because individuals find themselves agreeing with one another doesn't mean that that they are mouth-breathing followers, which is what you did imply, to whomever you meant it to apply.
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In regards to this conversation in particular, my circle jerk comment was meant lightly, and it was meant to be both humorous and as a way to open comment other than those which praised and agreed with the joke. I like the joke. I think it's damn funny. I just wanted there to be a variety of comments on it – and what I did worked.
So nyah.
You were able to derail an innocuous comedic thread to focus instead on your personal cause? Wow, you are a master manipulator. 
quote:
Well you obviously haven't had the experiences I've had, which include nearly 10 years of deep involvement with the freethought movement and secular activism. Any group can isolate itself. Just because they are a minority doesn't mean they are free from the temptations of group think and self righteousness.
And that's what you're not taking into account, we haven't had the experiences you've had. You have seemingly spent so much time with atheists that you've grown critical and suspicious of many of them. But for most of us, all christian all the time is our daily reality. We come here to blow off a little steam, and it's a buzz kill when you don't even allow people a little smi |
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/28/2006 23:34:16 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 23:35:16 [Permalink]
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Humbert wrote: quote:
Marf, although we've rarely seen eye to eye for very long, I have grown to respect your intelligence and zeal. But funny you ain't.
Oh come on - you actually took offense to circle jerk? I think I am funny and you just accidentally take me too seriously. Not to say I don't mean what I say - I do mean it - I just don't mean it as seriously as you seem to be taking it. Anyway, ask anyone who does Wednesday night chat - I'm hilarious.
Aren't I? Guys?
And thanks for the compliment. I think yer smart too.
quote:
We come here to blow off a little steam, and it's a buzz kill when you don't even allow people a little smile without trying to lay some god damn guilt trip on everyone.
Oh, sorry. I thought this was a discussion forum for skeptics, not a support group for nontheists trying to get away from the mainstream Christian culture.
Actually Humbert, skeptics are a branch of the freethought movement. Skeptics have conferences that host a lot of the same speakers that Humanist and atheist conferences host. And while emphasis varies, they tend to hammer on the same general issues. James Randi and Michael Shermer both spoke for my freethought student group at Ohio State University when I was an undergrad. As a skeptic forum, SFN is a part of the secular subculture, so it is especially appropriate for me to hammer on the particular soapbox I have been hammering on in this environment. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/28/2006 23:36:14 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 23:39:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
you don't even allow people a little smile without trying to lay some god damn guilt trip on everyone
Also, I repeat my statement about how I would not have made the comment had this post started in the humor folder. If it was exclusively for shits and giggles, it should've been posted there. Like bekeptical said: quote:
Clever, yes, funny yes, but just a joke, no.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 23:54:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Oh, sorry. I thought this was a discussion forum for skeptics, not a support group for nontheists trying to get away from the mainstream Christian culture.
Of course it is. I was simply trying to get you to consider a viewpoint other than your own. Not everyone shares your motivation or ideals. You did, after all, think appropriate to deem a mere three comments a "circle jerk."
quote:
Actually Humbert, skeptics are a branch of the freethought movement. Skeptics have conferences that host a lot of the same speakers that Humanist and atheist conferences host. And while emphasis varies, they tend to hammer on the same general issues. James Randi and Michael Shermer both spoke for my freethought student group at Ohio State University when I was an undergrad. As a skeptic forum, SFN is a part of the secular subculture, so it is especially appropriate for me to hammer on the particular soapbox I have been hammering on in this environment.
Your "humanistic" ideals share some traits in common with both atheism and skepticism, which is no doubt why those speakers agreed to address you, but to pretend either is an offshoot of humanism is laughable. Skepticism is not a "branch" of any "movement" unless that movement predates the Enlightment.
But if you are going to make it your mission to stick up for woo-woos and deny anyone else their fun, then it shall be my pleasure to oppose you.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/28/2006 23:55:58 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 23:57:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Also, I repeat my statement about how I would not have made the comment had this post started in the humor folder. If it was exclusively for shits and giggles, it should've been posted there. Like bekeptical said: Clever, yes, funny yes, but just a joke, no.
All religion is laughable. What is controversial about that?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/29/2006 00:12:02 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 09:05:37 [Permalink]
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So, this is fun…
Just so's ya know, I thought the faq was very funny. I laughed out loud.
I also share Marf's view that there is a tendency by some of us to lump all of those with a religious faith into one camp worthy of bashing. I think we should be supportive of any group that takes a dim view of fundamentalism. In my opinion, it is those moderate (choose a faith) that will be the most effective in the fight against fundamentalist lunacy because they are not as easily dismissed by the crazier members of their faith as the atheists are.
Beyond science, we are in a culture war right now and I welcome the Hal Bidlack's and the Kenneth Miller's to our side of that battle.
As counter intuitive as it may be for some of us to consider any theist as rational, on the matters of the greatest importance to a truly civilized society, there are many rational theists.
It's fine to not agree on the god thing. I think we have the better case by far on that score but in the long run what really matters is winning this culture war that we are in now.
As a side note, I have a friend who is a great skeptic. I often take him with me to the “New Age” expos that I frequent. He is a Christian. We sometimes argue about that and when I accuse him of having a blind spot in that one area, he accuses me of the same thing. What is important is we are both fighting the same battles. And in my book, even given that blind spot of his, he remains our ally, not our enemy.
We can think them crazy. We can think them wrong. But if we really want to insure a civilized society, we must also be tolerant and even respectful of their beliefs. As skeptics, we should make smart choices. And to my thinking, it is not smart to lump everyone who has an irrational belief into one camp and call them all dangerous.
Darn, I do wish the opening faq had been placed in the humor folder. But I dare anyone to accuse me of not having a sense of humor…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 09:14:54 [Permalink]
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| I don't think the thing makes fun of anyone or puts anyone down. It just states a simple point, that we often make too complicated, in a humorous way. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 09:50:54 [Permalink]
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| The enemy of my enemy is my friend. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 09:57:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I don't think the thing makes fun of anyone or puts anyone down. It just states a simple point, that we often make too complicated, in a humorous way.
I agree... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 10:15:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Well, if I don't view the enemy of my enemy as a lesser enemy, yes, I suppose that's what I am saying…
I'm for not loosing sight of the bigger picture. If you actually think that it is impossible to live with the differences in how we and they view religion, we are in bigger trouble than I think we are.
You know what? The biggest problem with fundamentalists, where they go wrong is they think they have a corner on the truth market. The day I decide that my friendship with any Christian is impossible because we don't agree on the god thing is the day I loose my own battle for logic and reason…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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