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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 07/29/2006 : 11:10:34 [Permalink]
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Humbert wrote: quote:
Your "humanistic" ideals share some traits in common with both atheism and skepticism, which is no doubt why those speakers agreed to address you, but to pretend either is an offshoot of humanism is laughable. Skepticism is not a "branch" of any "movement" unless that movement predates the Enlightment.
You are so incredibly good and reading things into my statements that simply aren't there. First of all, I never said skepticism was an "offshoot" of Humanism, nor did I say or even imply that Humanism was the trunk or root or whatever of this movement which others groups branch out from is. I said it was a branch off of "freethought" - a concept that does indeed come right out of the Englightenment, and that would include all organized groups of people who have intellectually freed themselves from all shackles of blind adherence to authority and dogma.
Also, yeah, skepticism as a philosophical idea that goes way back to the Greeks. Humanism too is a concept that pre-dates the Englightenment. Until recently, the two weren't connected in any organized way as they are in modern culture. I'm talking about a cultural connection that is very obvious, not some group of guys at the top pulling strings. (But trust me, the leaders in the national and international movements do literally draw out maps of the "freethougth movement" and these maps put groups like the Skeptic Society on a big branch called "Skeptics".) Even if skepticism itself pre-dates the Enlightenment, skeptics today are organized. They have their own publications, conferences, and people who identify as "skeptics" to label part or all of their lifestance. That's a movement. And it is undeniable that the skeptical movement, while its own unique thing, is intimately connected to the modern atheist movement and Humanist movement. I don't think anyone masterminded it that way, but that is what has culturally evolved. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/29/2006 11:11:40 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 03:22:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
You know what? The biggest problem with fundamentalists, where they go wrong is they think they have a corner on the truth market. The day I decide that my friendship with any Christian is impossible because we don't agree on the god thing is the day I loose my own battle for logic and reason…
More "progressive" theists often think they have the corner as well, they just know when to stop when it comes to attempts to convert you. And I don't mind attempts to convert me as long as I get to state my view as well.
Personally, I don't let theists anywhere near me. On the rare occastion one has to wait on me in a restaurant, I make them kneel down and deny their god.  |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/30/2006 03:23:26 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 05:47:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Well, if I don't view the enemy of my enemy as a lesser enemy, yes, I suppose that's what I am saying…
I'm for not loosing sight of the bigger picture. If you actually think that it is impossible to live with the differences in how we and they view religion, we are in bigger trouble than I think we are.
No, I don't think that...at least with the moderates. I hope I didn't give that impression with my little quip. It was something you said in an earlier post that caused my brain to pop up that phrase.
quote:
You know what? The biggest problem with fundamentalists, where they go wrong is they think they have a corner on the truth market. The day I decide that my friendship with any Christian is impossible because we don't agree on the god thing is the day I loose my own battle for logic and reason…
I think it is practically impossible for a fundamentalist to have friends that aren't. Part of the nature of being one I think. No outsiders allowed.
For example, my girlfriend is a christian, though not a fundamentalist (if she were, she would not be my girlfriend, but I digress). Some of her so-called christian friends (who are fundametalists) tried on numerous occasions to break us up because of who I am. Their fear was that I would force her to the Dark Side(tm). Their favorite bible quote (among others) was the ox and two masters story. Basically, she couldn't be with me because we believed differently, they said.
Needless to say, she is still with me and those so-called friends are not friends any more. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 08:56:40 [Permalink]
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Pleco wrote: quote:
I think it is practically impossible for a fundamentalist to have friends that aren't. Part of the nature of being one I think. No outsiders allowed.
I generally agree with your first sentence here, but not always for the reasons stated in the rest of this paragraph. In the case of your girlfriends' friends, the issue might have been not that you and your girlfriend are friends, but that you are dating. And Christian fundamentalism is rather sexist, requiring a woman to either submit to her "earthly father" or husband, depending on if she is married or absolutely has neither. I'm not sure what single women whose fathers are dead or MIA are supposed to do. Anyway, obviously with such a mindset, the whole "two masters" thingy applies.
Probably some fundamentalists might avoid friendship with atheists for fear of being turned over to the Dark Side(tm) - Amish have certainly taken that idea to the extreme.
And then there is another scenerio, which I have experienced repeatedly over the years. I've had numerous fundamentalist "friends", and I put it in quotations because they never were or could be true friendships because of the fundamentalism. Non-fundamentalists - of any stripe - are, by definition, fanatical and self-righteous about their beliefs. They have no healthy sense of uncertainty. I'm thinking that is what was intended when Kil said they have a "corner on the truth market". I as an atheist, and my progressive/moderate Christian friends have affirmative beliefs about the universe and whatnot, but because we're not self-righteous about it, we're both comfortable with other people believing different things, and even accept that it's better that people not all believe the same thing. Fundamentalists honestly think the world would be a much better place if everyone believed exactly what they believe. My fundy "friends" started to care about me (and I about them!), and as they started to care about me, their "reality" that I was going to hell would become more and more unbearable. They were always trying to convert me. It's not so bad when it is overt, but when someone is your friend and you recognize all sorts of covert things they are doing to try to lure you over to their worldview, the whole friendship starts to feel fake.
I should also mention that I've rarely been able to maintain a frienship with a fundamentalist man. Those here may have noticed - I tend to debate aggressively, like a man, and sexist men who think women should be passive tend not to deal with that very well. I also tend not to deal with some jackass condescending to me purely because he believes he is to Christ as women are to the Church.
quote:
Needless to say, she is still with me and those so-called friends are not friends any more.
Hurrah! |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/30/2006 08:58:09 |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2006 : 14:33:32 [Permalink]
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Better a late response than no response :)
I put it in the "Religion" section because that's were I felt it belonged. It is a slam against the idiocy of believing in god(s). It just happens to be a VERY funny one as well. The little blurb beneath it about finding omissions or inaccuracies in the FAQ was the icing on the cake for me (as far as which folder to stick it in).
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I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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