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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 10/02/2006 : 11:07:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Yes, GK Paul, nobody doubts that there were Christians. That doesn't mean there was a Christ.
The famous Roman historian Tacitus would have disagreed.
So what? The argument you're making is that because there were people worshipping some god, then that god actually existed. By the exact same logic, you will have to admit to the existence of Thor, Zeus and Mithra, since people have worshipped those gods, too. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 11:55:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
...since people have worshipped those gods, too.
And still do. Why, SFN-member Storm even sort of does, in a Nordic God Freya. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 21:29:10 [Permalink]
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From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus
quote:
Tacitus is considered the most reliable scholar of his time. He had access to Roman archives, and his only mistakes arose from occasional reliance on secondary sources. In this case he could have been using either Christian sources or Roman archives. It is argued that if he had been using Roman archives, he should have identified Pontius Pilate as a "prefect" rather than a "procurator," since Pilate is known from a surviving inscription to have been prefect (i.e. governor), as is also stated in the Gospels (although it is possible that the original might have used the abbreviation "Pr." which Tacitus then misinterpreted, or that Pilate held both offices, which was common). The more serious criticism is that the records would have identified Jesus by his given name rather than "Christus." In addition, Christian accounts were readily available while centuries of inquiry have turned up no authentic contemporaneous Roman documents related to a historical Jesus.
Not exactly iron-clad proof, especially considering that Tacitus wasn't even born until a couple decades after Jesus's supposed death. If he was using Christian sources, then his one little paragraph where he mentions Christ doesn't add anything new to the historical record on Jesus. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 10/02/2006 21:30:35 |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 03:08:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Yes, GK Paul, nobody doubts that there were Christians. That doesn't mean there was a Christ.
The famous Roman historian Tacitus would have disagreed.
So what? The argument you're making is that because there were people worshipping some god, then that god actually existed. By the exact same logic, you will have to admit to the existence of Thor, Zeus and Mithra, since people have worshipped those gods, too.
Well actually mainline Christian churches believe Jesus is part of the Godhead or Trinity. God the Father is Spirit. Jesus came out of God and became flesh. Jesus, now has a glorified body and is part of the Godhead. So by having historical evidence of Jesus you have (according to mainline Christianity) evidence of the existence of God or at least an important part of the Trintiy which makes up the Godhead. In other words Jesus is a part of God who existed in the flesh while on earth. After the resurrection, and now, He has a glorified heavenly body.
Legend has it that St. Patrick used the 3 leaf clover to explain the Trinity. 3 in 1. You also have the Holy Spirit which is sent by God to believers to guide and teach them. This is where you get the expression filled with the Holy Spirit. You don't need to understand all of this in order to be saved. All you need to do is to sincerely ask for forgiveness for your sins and ask God to come into your heart. Than maybe find a Bible believing church to help you and to guide you in your walk with God. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 10/03/2006 03:13:59 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 03:14:46 [Permalink]
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Go preach at your church and stop preaching at us.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 03:39:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
So by having historical evidence of Jesus you have (according to mainline Christianity) evidence of the existence of God or at least an important part of the Trintiy which makes up the Godhead. In other words Jesus is a part of God who existed in the flesh while on earth. After the resurrection, and now, He has a glorified heavenly body.
Legend has it that St. Patrick used the 3 leaf clover to explain the Trinity. 3 in 1. You also have the Holy Spirit which is sent by God to believers to guide and teach them. This is where you get the expression filled with the Holy Spirit. You don't need to understand all of this in order to be saved. All you need to do is to sincerely ask for forgiveness for your sins and ask God to come into your heart. Than maybe find a Bible believing church to help you and to guide you in your walk with God.
Do you mind presenting some kind of evidence for you wild assertions of magical beings?
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 05:08:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
So what? The argument you're making is that because there were people worshipping some god, then that god actually existed. By the exact same logic, you will have to admit to the existence of Thor, Zeus and Mithra, since people have worshipped those gods, too.
Well actually mainline Christian churches believe Jesus is part of the Godhead or Trinity. God the Father is Spirit. Jesus came out of God and became flesh. Jesus, now has a glorified body and is part of the Godhead. So by having historical evidence of Jesus you have (according to mainline Christianity) evidence of the existence of God or at least an important part of the Trintiy which makes up the Godhead. In other words Jesus is a part of God who existed in the flesh while on earth. After the resurrection, and now, He has a glorified heavenly body.
Legend has it that St. Patrick used the 3 leaf clover to explain the Trinity. 3 in 1. You also have the Holy Spirit which is sent by God to believers to guide and teach them. This is where you get the expression filled with the Holy Spirit. You don't need to understand all of this in order to be saved. All you need to do is to sincerely ask for forgiveness for your sins and ask God to come into your heart. Than maybe find a Bible believing church to help you and to guide you in your walk with God.
Truly superb.
That is some of the best complete avoidance of the question I've witnessed in some time.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 05:30:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Yes, GK Paul, nobody doubts that there were Christians. That doesn't mean there was a Christ.
The famous Roman historian Tacitus would have disagreed.
So what? The argument you're making is that because there were people worshipping some god, then that god actually existed. By the exact same logic, you will have to admit to the existence of Thor, Zeus and Mithra, since people have worshipped those gods, too.
Well actually mainline Christian churches believe Jesus is part of the Godhead or Trinity. God the Father is Spirit. Jesus came out of God and became flesh. Jesus, now has a glorified body and is part of the Godhead. So by having historical evidence of Jesus you have (according to mainline Christianity) evidence of the existence of God or at least an important part of the Trintiy which makes up the Godhead. In other words Jesus is a part of God who existed in the flesh while on earth. After the resurrection, and now, He has a glorified heavenly body.
Hmmm. So if I say that John Malkovitch is one-in-being with the Flying Spaghetti Monster, then I have evidence that FSM exists because John exists. Wow. That was easy. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 05:49:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Yes, GK Paul, nobody doubts that there were Christians. That doesn't mean there was a Christ.
The famous Roman historian Tacitus would have disagreed.
So what? The argument you're making is that because there were people worshipping some god, then that god actually existed. By the exact same logic, you will have to admit to the existence of Thor, Zeus and Mithra, since people have worshipped those gods, too.
And I call upon Ra, Apollo, Cernunos, Isis, Cerdywn, and several others as aspects of the creative force of the universe.
They all predate this Jesus character.
(Sarcasm warning)
Does that mean that my gods are more valid than Jesus?
(End sarcasm)
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 05:59:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Well actually mainline Christian churches believe Jesus is part of the Godhead or Trinity. God the Father is Spirit. Jesus came out of God and became flesh. Jesus, now has a glorified body and is part of the Godhead. So by having historical evidence of Jesus you have (according to mainline Christianity) evidence of the existence of God or at least an important part of the Trintiy which makes up the Godhead. In other words Jesus is a part of God who existed in the flesh while on earth. After the resurrection, and now, He has a glorified heavenly body.
Legend has it that St. Patrick used the 3 leaf clover to explain the Trinity. 3 in 1. You also have the Holy Spirit which is sent by God to believers to guide and teach them. This is where you get the expression filled with the Holy Spirit. You don't need to understand all of this in order to be saved. All you need to do is to sincerely ask for forgiveness for your sins and ask God to come into your heart. Than maybe find a Bible believing church to help you and to guide you in your walk with God.
Jesus F...... Christ All you have said is that since you and a lot of other people believe that Jesus existed, then Jesus existed. It is exactly like your saying, "I believe that Jesus existed because I believe that Jesus existed." You have provided nothing more than a personal testimony of faith.
As clear as I can possibly make this:
- Testimonials do not constitute evidence.
- A lot of people believing the same thing does not constitute evidence of that thing.
- A list of famous people believing the same thing does not constitute evidence of that thing. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 07:33:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by leoofno
So if I say that John Malkovitch is one-in-being with the Flying Spaghetti Monster, then I have evidence that FSM exists because John exists.
You've got evidence that John Malkivitch exists?! |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 08:31:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by leoofno
So if I say that John Malkovitch is one-in-being with the Flying Spaghetti Monster, then I have evidence that FSM exists because John exists.
You've got evidence that John Malkivitch exists?!
He's in Wikipedia. What more do you need? If his existance were questionable, it would say so. Besides...
* There are copious references to him in documents from the time of his alleged existence.
* There are numerous pictures of him standing with figures of known historical existence.
* Many people from his time period claim to have had conversations with him and describe him as a real, physical person.
* Finally, there are many film recordings, verifiably created during his supposed lifetime, that record his image.
Really, his existence is better documented than Julius Caesar or Socrates.
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"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 08:37:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by leoofno
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by leoofno
So if I say that John Malkovitch is one-in-being with the Flying Spaghetti Monster, then I have evidence that FSM exists because John exists.
You've got evidence that John Malkivitch exists?!
He's in Wikipedia. What more do you need? If his existance were questionable, it would say so. Besides...
* There are copious references to him in documents from the time of his alleged existence.
* There are numerous pictures of him standing with figures of known historical existence.
* Many people from his time period claim to have had conversations with him and describe him as a real, physical person.
* Finally, there are many film recordings, verifiably created during his supposed lifetime, that record his image.
Really, his existence is better documented than Julius Caesar or Socrates.
I saw in one of the recordings that there was a door that would lead directly into his mind. That seems to be a supernatural power indeed. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 09:12:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Originally posted by leoofno
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by leoofno
So if I say that John Malkovitch is one-in-being with the Flying Spaghetti Monster, then I have evidence that FSM exists because John exists.
You've got evidence that John Malkivitch exists?!
He's in Wikipedia. What more do you need? If his existance were questionable, it would say so. Besides...
* There are copious references to him in documents from the time of his alleged existence.
* There are numerous pictures of him standing with figures of known historical existence.
* Many people from his time period claim to have had conversations with him and describe him as a real, physical person.
* Finally, there are many film recordings, verifiably created during his supposed lifetime, that record his image.
Really, his existence is better documented than Julius Caesar or Socrates.
I saw in one of the recordings that there was a door that would lead directly into his mind. That seems to be a supernatural power indeed.
I do think that that is supposed to be taken symbolically, not literally. His works are the door, his mind is enlightenment about the FSM. See? Its through him that we learn the truth and are saved. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 09:15:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by leoofno
I do think that that is supposed to be taken symbolically, not literally. His works are the door, his mind is enlightenment about the FSM. See? Its through him that we learn the truth and are saved.
I disagree. I think it should be taken literally. Since we disagree, I will split from you and form my own "Assembly of JM". Soon to follow will be my application for tax-free status. Further, I encourage all people to vote for candidates that have a pro-JM platform.
Follow the holy gourd!!! |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 10/03/2006 09:17:14 |
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