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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/01/2006 : 12:22:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
As long as science cannot 100% explain a concept, then GK Paul's idea of god will be used to fill in the gap.
Just like a muscle, mis-use or non-use of your brain can result in damage, sometimes irreversible. Magic thinking is the tamping iron to a person's rational, logical self.
It's even worse than that. I think GK Paul and the fundies in general would not simply plaster any gap in a scientific knowledge with Biblical "wisdom" -- they'd toss out whole scientific theories and replace them with their ancient myths. In fact, gaps are only an excuse to them. If there were no controversies within evolutionary biology at all, they'd be working just as hard to replace the ToE.
To take the matter to it's logical conclusion, they want everything handed to them; no doubts, no questions, no having to contemplate tedious research. And the inquisitive know that research can really get tedious. So, they go to The Book; it's all in The Book-- all of the grim magic that explains everything. Thus, no thought, no worries, and no disagreement. Praise Jesus and burn the heretics!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 12:53:43 [Permalink]
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To Mr. Starman,
You seem to believe that a passage about Jesus from the Jewish historian Josephus "might" be a forgery. Well Joshephus is not the only non-Christian source for Jesus. We also have the Roman historians Tacitus and Suetonius. The World Book 2006 calls Tacitus one of the world's great historians. Writing about 116 in the Annals(Bk xv, ch. 44) he describes the persecution of the Christians in 64 A.D. under Nero:
"A disgraceful rumor attributed to Nero the order to start a fire. To scotch the rumour, he substituted as culprits those men, detested for their crimes, whom the crowd called Christians, and delivered them up to the most refined tortures. Chistus, the founder of this name, had been condemned to death by the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. This pernicious sect, at first checked, broke out anew, not only in Judaea, the home of this disease, but in the City itself, where all things horrible and shameful in the world collect and find a vogue."
Suetonius, another Roman historian wrote that Emperor Claudius "expelled from Rome the Jews, who had been, at the instigation of Chrestus(sic), a permanent cause of disorder" (Life Of Claudius, xxv; cf. Acts 18. 2; In talking about Nero, Suetonius writes that he "inflicted punishments on the Christians, a sect which professed a new and mischievous superstition". |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 10/01/2006 13:13:20 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 14:58:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Yes, GK Paul, nobody doubts that there were Christians. That doesn't mean there was a Christ.
Well, I for one doubt that there ever were, or are, Christians!
The greatest secret of the last two thousand years is that Christianity is a fabrication of Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus. Nero burned Rome to make room for his palace expansions, but he was very clever about how he did it. He invented the idea of a conspiracy by followers of a Rabbi Yeshua Ben Yosef, a supposed group of Jewish-connected messianic cultists, to take the blame.
Nero, himself an actor and singer, first cleverly hired a band of actors. (These were perhaps professional actors he'd known from his own stage forays, or people from the corps of rent-able mourners who would wail so convincingly at the funerals of elite Romans.) The actors ran about in public, generally being obnoxious, and pretending to be these "Christians." They also set his fires and committed other disgraceful acts as his agents provocateur.
Nero was able to blame these made-up cultists for the fires he had his actors set, and he later had numbers of innocent citizens and slaves rounded up to take the heat in the arenas. The use of these actors was so successful, that later Emperors would use the same technique. Over generations, the band of actors became a growing subculture with a life of its own. They became so prominent, in fact, that Constantine found it useful to proclaim the actors and their invented ceremonies to be the official Roman state religion. These "Christians" would continue to flourish even after the demise of the Roman Empire.
To this day, all "real" Christians are merely actors, though a perhaps tiny minority of deluded souls are out of the loop, and consider Christianity to be an actual religion.
[Edit: Corrected "Yakob" to "Yosef."]
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/02/2006 04:00:33 |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 23:18:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Yes, GK Paul, nobody doubts that there were Christians. That doesn't mean there was a Christ.
Well, I for one doubt that there ever were, or are, Christians!
The greatest secret of the last two thousand years is that Christianity is a fabrication of Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus. Nero burned Rome to make room for his palace expansions, but he was very clever about how he did it. He invented the idea of a conspiracy by followers of a Rabbi Yeshua Ben Jakob, a supposed group of Jewish-connected messianic cultists, to take the blame.
Nero, himself an actor and singer, first cleverly hired a band of actors. (These were perhaps professional actors he'd known from his own stage forays, or people from the corps of rent-able mourners who would wail so convincingly at the funerals of elite Romans.) The actors ran about in public, generally being obnoxious, and pretending to be these "Christians." They also set his fires and committed other disgraceful acts as his agents provocateur.
Nero was able to blame these made-up cultists for the fires he had his actors set, and he later had numbers of innocent citizens and slaves rounded up to take the heat in the arenas. The use of these actors was so successful, that later Emperors would use the same technique. Over generations, the band of actors became a growing subculture with a life of its own. They became so prominent, in fact, that Constantine found it useful to proclaim the actors and their invented ceremonies to be the official Roman state religion. These "Christians" would continue to flourish even after the demise of the Roman Empire.
To this day, all "real" Christians are merely actors, though a perhaps tiny minority of deluded souls are out of the loop, and consider Christianity to be an actual religion.
I have no comment. I'll let the post speak for itself. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 23:40:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Yes, GK Paul, nobody doubts that there were Christians. That doesn't mean there was a Christ.
The famous Roman historian Tacitus would have disagreed. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 00:26:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Yes, GK Paul, nobody doubts that there were Christians. That doesn't mean there was a Christ.
The famous Roman historian Tacitus would have disagreed.
Would he, now? But did he? Please provide the quote.
Edited to add: Oh, sorry, I see it above! Didn't like the Christians much, did he? And Tacitus' sources must not have been the best in this case, as he wrongly identified Pilate as a "procurator" of Judea, when he was actually a "prefect," as is known from both a surviving inscription and the Gospels.
And now, with all the wild religious ferment and competing Messiahs of Roman Judea, how do you know that this "Christus" (sometimes translated as "Chrestus") is identical with "Jesus", and that later Church writers didn't just conflate two or more old tales from Judea? And why do no Roman records ever refer to "Jesus"?
My revelation looks stronger than yours.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/02/2006 01:12:05 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 00:37:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I have no comment. I'll let the post speak for itself.
Thank you. My revelation thus remains unchallenged.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 00:41:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
We also have the Roman historians Tacitus and Suetonius. The World Book 2006 calls Tacitus one of the world's great historians. Writing about 116 in the Annals(Bk xv, ch. 44) he describes the persecution of the Christians in 64 A.D. under Nero:
"A disgraceful rumor attributed to Nero the order to start a fire. To scotch the rumour, he substituted as culprits those men, detested for their crimes, whom the crowd called Christians, and delivered them up to the most refined tortures. Chistus, the founder of this name, had been condemned to death by the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. This pernicious sect, at first checked, broke out anew, not only in Judaea, the home of this disease, but in the City itself, where all things horrible and shameful in the world collect and find a vogue."
Suetonius, another Roman historian wrote that Emperor Claudius "expelled from Rome the Jews, who had been, at the instigation of Chrestus(sic), a permanent cause of disorder" (Life Of Claudius, xxv; cf. Acts 18. 2; In talking about Nero, Suetonius writes that he "inflicted punishments on the Christians, a sect which professed a new and mischievous superstition".
The "The Twelve Caesars" by Suetonius is actually on my nightstand at this very moment.
(A translation of course, my Latin is a bit subpar. "Romanes eunt domus"?)
Tacticus, just like Suetonius (and Josephus for that matter), was a client of the Falvian emperors to whom Nero was an enemy.
From these roman historians we know that in the begining of the second century there was a religious sect in Rome called christians. They claimed to have been persecuted during the reign of Nero. They also claimed that their religion was started by Jesus, who was executed by Pilate during the reign of Tiberius.
The persecution fits easily with Tacticus & Suetonius negative views of Nero. (We can be pretty sure that a christian sect existed during Neros reign as Paul probably wrote his letters in that time.)
When it comes to the life or death of Jesus, no records of this exist. Tacticus does not tell us his source. The christian view that Jesus was crucified by Pontius Pilate might well have been establised by the begining if the second centurty, some of the gospels were probably already writen by then. Tacticus probably relied on the sects own stories for the description.
Still, Jesus might have existed, but this is not a historical fact as no real evidence exist. All of the information comes from the sect making the claim in the first place.
[Edit for clarity] |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
| Edited by - Starman on 10/02/2006 00:51:32 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 02:04:34 [Permalink]
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When I published my revelation above ("The greatest secret of the last two thousand years"), I did not provide very much proof. I shall do so now.
1. First, my revelation remains unchallenged to this very moment.
2. Everything in the above revelation is real: Romans, Nero, arenas, fires, palace expansions, Constantine -- all that's well-attested historical stuff, unlike the Jesus mythos. It just took a person like me to put it all together and make sense of it. It looks to me like a stronger statement of facts than the contradictory Gospels provide. It certainly contains more known facts.
3. Everyone who's been to church knows in their hearts that the people in the pews seem to be "acting," and that certainly the pastor or priest is. Many of us who have attended a church service would privately admit that we were acting while there, too. Most "Christians" nowadays are probably not such good actors as were their professional Roman forebears. Who could expect them to be, when they no longer are being paid in good Imperial coin? But, yawning and fidgeting in the pews as they do, those playing the congregants usually give the a decent amateur-troupe effort for their roles as "background people." The pastors, however, mainly being professional, sometimes put on a most inspiring act. True, the acting styles of pastors vary from the emotionless rote reading of the Chuck Norris school, to terrible overacting of the Keanu Reeves school, with little in between, but give them some credit: "It's called acting."
That's 3 and 0 for my revelation. I'll have even more evidence soon.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/02/2006 02:07:47 |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 02:10:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I have no comment. I'll let the post speak for itself.
Thank you. My revelation thus remains unchallenged.
Yes, your revelation remains unchallenged; I'll let it speak for itself.
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"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 10/02/2006 02:14:09 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 02:14:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I have no comment. I'll let the post speak for itself.
Thank you. My revelation thus remains unchallenged.
Yes, your revelation remains unchallenged; I'll let it speak for itself.
Thank you again GK! Now, that's twice that it's been unchallenged.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 02:18:53 [Permalink]
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| And to Mr. Starman, I'll let the Roman Senator and historian, Mr Tacitus' words speak for themselves also. You can add to them whatever you wish. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 02:25:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
And to Mr. Starman, I'll let the Roman Senator and historian, Mr Tacitus' words speak for themselves also. You can add to them whatever you wish.
So you accept that there is no historical evidence for Jesus existence. Good for you. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 02:30:55 [Permalink]
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I've got an idea, GK: Why not let your God speak for himself, too? You certainly haven't been doing him any favors here.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/02/2006 02:32:27 |
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