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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
 Posted - 09/13/2006 : 15:00:17 [Permalink]
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| From the reading I've done "most" scientists believe a virus is not a living organism. It can't reproduce unless attached to a living organism. I would have to use the example of fire. Fire spreads rapidly and causes great damage (like a virus) but it is not a living entity, |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 09/13/2006 15:09:22 |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 15:08:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
...He was so powerful in his day (a bright star) and ended up (from memory) in the pit hell on a bed of worms and a sheet of maggots...
More vile behavior from GK Paul's bizarre so-called loving God.
Maggots and worms are vile to you (even though some cultures eat both of them) and sin is vile to God. But He, through His grace, does give you ample time to repent for your violatations of His laws(which are made for our long term best interest) |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 18:11:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
From the reading I've done "most" scientists believe a virus is not a living organism. It can't reproduce unless attached to a living organism. I would have to use the example of fire. Fire spreads rapidly and causes great damage (like a virus) but it is not a living entity,
This is more evidence that you are scientifically illiterate. By saying that, I'm stating it as a matter of fact, not with the purpose of being insulting.
We don't "believe" a virus is living or non-living. It's a false dichotomy. Belief and faith has nothing to do with it, but it's a question of how to define life. That is more a philosophical question.
Your fire-analogy is not applicable to virus, it's a false analogy because the fire does not take control over the log of wood in order to force the log of wood to manufacture more fire.
Fire is a simple chemical process, which in massive quantity creates emerging properties that have analogies of "living".
The virus was a very complex chemical process, which in massive quantities has an entirely different emergent property.
GK Paul, that you presented a false dichotomy and a false analogy is symptomatic of a lack of knowledge and/or application of knowledge in biology and science. I suggest you educate yourself in evolution. That way, when you are criticising aspects of it, you will know what you're talking about. Right now you don't, and it's causing a lot of aggravation. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 18:32:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
...He was so powerful in his day (a bright star) and ended up (from memory) in the pit hell on a bed of worms and a sheet of maggots...
More vile behavior from GK Paul's bizarre so-called loving God.
Maggots and worms are vile to you (even though some cultures eat both of them) and sin is vile to God. But He, through His grace, does give you ample time to repent for your violatations of His laws(which are made for our long term best interest)
Unless you die young, therefore not having as much time as many others.
Or you die before hearing the good news.
Or you die after hearing the good news from someone who wasn't very convincing.
Or you die as an unbaptised child, raped amd murdrerd by some sick bastard, before you had a chance to make up your own mind. (Where is God then? Is it all for the best, we just don't see the big picture?)
(Sorry, I'm not in a good mood and sometimes God just pisses me off.)
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"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 19:17:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by leoofno
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Maggots and worms are vile to you (even though some cultures eat both of them) and sin is vile to God. But He, through His grace, does give you ample time to repent for your violatations of His laws(which are made for our long term best interest)
Unless you die young, therefore not having as much time as many others.
Or you die before hearing the good news.
Or you die after hearing the good news from someone who wasn't very convincing.
Or you die as an unbaptised child, raped amd murdrerd by some sick bastard, before you had a chance to make up your own mind. (Where is God then? Is it all for the best, we just don't see the big picture?)
(Sorry, I'm not in a good mood and sometimes God just pisses me off.)
Good point, since we are each guilty of sin from the moment of our first breath. Seems fair to assume that the pits of hell are lined with babies and those who never heard of Jesus.  |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 19:24:30 [Permalink]
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| Yeah, but the excuse given is that god is the final judge and will not send those people/babies to hell. Of course, the people who say this are the same people who say that the mind of god is unknowable... |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 19:41:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Fire spreads rapidly and causes great damage (like a virus) but it is not a living entity
Same goes for an earthquake. So can I get my anti-earthquake shot now, or what? |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 19:57:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Yeah, but the excuse given is that god is the final judge and will not send those people/babies to hell. Of course, the people who say this are the same people who say that the mind of god is unknowable...
The Bible doesn't say that, just people who realize how horrific God would be if he actually did what he said. So they make "interpretations" on what is written, and read into it what they feel it really ought to say.
Much like.... Christians reading the gospel traditions into the epistles of Paul and other early "christian" writers whos works contain few if any gospel traditions. (See, I'm trying to bring this back on topic...) |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 07:53:00 [Permalink]
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I think this is relevant, and interesting: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12288167/site/newsweek/page/2/
Rabbi Gellman defends traditional faith (Christian and Jewish) against the possible refutation of its founding stories by saying, essentially, that it doesn't matter. True or not, the message of these stories is what is important, and people benefit from the message.
He ends with this:
"A proposition can be true, philosophy reminds us, by correspondence or coherence. It can be true because it corresponds to something that happened in the world, or it can be true because it forms a coherent explanation of the way the world works. Religion is the first coherent explanation of why we are here on earth and what we are meant to do and hope and endure and transcend. Everything else is just Nielsen ratings"
The Truth, capitol "T", doesn't matter so long as our faith helps us endure and gives us hope. Gellman wants the world to be one big happy family, multiple faiths working together in harmony. But those faiths have many mutually exclusive beliefs, different "Truths". So I can understand his need to downplay the importance of truth and focus on the message, which is more consistent across the faiths.
But…how can the truth not matter? How can it be better to believe a fiction than to see things as they truly are? Which provides a better chance of actually making this world a better place? It should be obvious that "hoping" changes nothing. Waiting for a non-existent god to change things will get you nowhere if it doesn't exist. You may endure, but your condition remains the same
There may be some good to be derived from following the teachings of a benevolent, but fictional, god. Gellman points out that Christianity has "brought faith, hope and charity to millions." Yet it suffers from a good deal of nasty baggage that comes along with those teachings (blind obedience, intolerance…), such that it can also be said that Christianity has brought death, misery and despair to millions. And its all for something that, in the end, doesn't exist.
Its must be better to see reality clearly, and act accordingly. The human condition did not improve much, in the western world, during the 1500 or so years that Christianity kept a solid grip on learning and investigation. The improvement in the quality of life for millions that has occurred over the past several centuries is due not to the teachings of any church, but to the rational, scientific examination of how the world works, and the exploitation of that knowledge. This was only accomplished by throwing off the constraints of the Church and following the evidence, wherever it leads.
Hmmm, I seem to have rambled on a bit. My bad.
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"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 08:05:25 [Permalink]
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GK Paul wrote: quote:
From the reading I've done "most" scientists believe a virus is not a living organism. It can't reproduce unless attached to a living organism. I would have to use the example of fire. Fire spreads rapidly and causes great damage (like a virus) but it is not a living entity,
First, most scientists classify viruses as nonliving. Belief has nothing to do with it since viruses are or are not living based on what terminology people decide to use. Sort of like the whole Is Pluto a planet? question that was recently re-settled.
Secondly, did you just totally miss my point? My point was that you said it required extraordinary faith to believe that life sprung from non-life. More faith than it takes to believe in the complex and often self-contradictory and illogical dogmas of one version of Christianity. I simply pointed out that things exist which teeter on the border between what is classified as "living" and what is classified as "non-living", and thus, it does not take much faith to think highly simplistic living things first emerged from non-living chemical reactions. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 17:44:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
It seems that GK Paul is getting the benefit of the doubt, and he/she really shouldn't.
So, shouldn't we backup and start with:
GK Paul, prove that a god (any god) exists.
We are here aren't we. To me it makes more sense that an Eternal God created the soul, than eternal chemicals created the soul. I don't believe Jesus's Words, Shakespere's Hamlet, and a Boing 747 evolved from nonliving chemicals.
If you can believe non-living chemicals that have always existed have the God-like ability to create life. Why can't you believe that a God that has always existed has the God-like ability to create life. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 09/17/2006 18:14:20 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 17:58:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
We are here aren't we.
That argument assumes its conclusion.quote:
To me it makes more sense that an Eternal God created the soul, than eternal chemicals created the soul.
That assumes there is a "soul."quote:
I don't believe Jesus's Words, Shakespere's Hamlet, and a Boing 747 evolved from nonliving chemicals.
Neither do I, since none of the things you mentioned (words, a play, and an airplane) is or ever was alive.
Technicalities aside, what "makes more sense" in your subjective opinion isn't evidence for the existence of any god, it's just a symptom of your desire for easy answers to tough questions. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 18:01:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
To Moakley, I've done a little research on the subject of Lucifer since my last post on him. Lucifer in Isaiah is figurative speech for the king of Babylon. The passage was actually mocking the king as a star that had fallen. He was so powerful in his day (a bright star) and ended up (from memory) in the pit hell on a bed of worms and a sheet of maggots.
Since the Lucifer term is referring to the king of Babylon (which by the way could be said of Saddam Hussein a few ago) and since the king of Babylon was a human being than obviously he had free will; since he was a human created by God. Unless you are a evolutionist and than the king evolved from bacteria.
Now the next thing would be to provide a link for your source. I found something saying similar things about Lucifer over at wiki. I do not know if it was your source or not.
My source is Luther's Works. A 56 volume set that pretty much analyzed each passage of the Bible. Luther devoted his life to the study of the Bible and studied it in different languages. So Martin Luther who, studied the verse in different languages, did not believe the term Lucifer was anything but figurative speech for the evil king of Babylon (a mere mortal).
It was the volume that dealt with the book of Isaiah. It would probably take you 6 months to read the whole 56 volumes though. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 18:34:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
We are here aren't we.
That argument assumes its conclusion.quote:
To me it makes more sense that an Eternal God created the soul, than eternal chemicals created the soul.
That assumes there is a "soul."quote:
I don't believe Jesus's Words, Shakespere's Hamlet, and a Boing 747 evolved from nonliving chemicals.
Neither do I, since none of the things you mentioned (words, a play, and an airplane) is or ever was alive.
Technicalities aside, what "makes more sense" in your subjective opinion isn't evidence for the existence of any god, it's just a symptom of your desire for easy answers to tough questions.
Well sir, I do believe God gave you a soul, and if you pray to Him He'll help you find it. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 18:39:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
My source is Luther's Works...
Minus the antisemitic parts I hope. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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