|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 09/17/2006 : 19:35:40 [Permalink]
|
Gee, yeah. The Nazi's liked Luther even more than they liked Darwin...
quote:
From Wikipedia article, Martin Luther and the Jews:
Luther's sentiments were widely echoed in the Germany of the 1930s, particularly within the Nazi party. Hitler's Education Minister, Bernhard Rust, was quoted by the Volkischer Beobachter as saying that: "Since Martin Luther closed his eyes, no such son of our people has appeared again. It has been decided that we shall be the first to witness his reappearance ... I think the time is past when one may not say the names of Hitler and Luther in the same breath. They belong together; they are of the same old stamp [Schrot und Korn]".
|
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
 |
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 20:39:10 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Well sir, I do believe God gave you a soul, and if you pray to Him He'll help you find it.
I'm still not seeing any evidence that your alleged god exists here. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 20:44:59 [Permalink]
|
No kidding. Luther was no hardly less of an anti-Semite than Hitler. From the same Wiki page that Kil quoted:quote:
Luther advocated an eight-point plan to get rid of the Jews either by religious conversion or by expulsion:
1. "First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. ..."
2. "Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. ..."
3. "Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. ..."
4. "Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. ..."
5. "Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. ..."
6. "Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them. ... Such money should now be used in ... the following [way]... Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed [a certain amount]..."
7. "Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow... For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants."
8. "If we wish to wash our hands of the Jews' blasphemy and not share in their guilt, we have to part company with them. They must be driven from our country" and "we must drive them out like mad dogs." [20]
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 01:01:59 [Permalink]
|
Luther wrote the "Chick tracts" of his time, utilizing the new technology of the movable-type press. They were often filled with such raving hatred, it is easy to imagine that the man was as insane as Fred Phelps. The best thing that might be said for Luther's tracts is that the titles clearly showed what to expect within them.
Luther had catchy titles like the rabidly anti-Semitic "On the Jews and their Lies," (source of the above quote), and "On the Murdering, Thieving Peasants," where Luther kisses the aristocracy's asses by siding with them against the poorest and most populous social class of his time, during the great Peasant's War (1524–25). By the time the aristocrats had smashed the peasants, about 100,000 of them had been slaughtered. This arguable "Whore of Wittenberg" was the same man who identified the Pope with the Whore of Babylon.
Luther also hated witches: "On 25 August 1538 there was much discussion about witches and sorceresses who steal chicken eggs out of nests, or steal milk and butter. Doctor Martin said: 'One should show no mercy to these [women]; I would burn them myself, for we read in the Law that the priests were the ones to begin the stoning of criminals.'"
One has to cherry-pick Luther very cautiously to avoid consuming his virulently hateful, poisonous fruit.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 09/18/2006 01:19:11 |
|
|
|
pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 07:41:28 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
We are here aren't we. To me it makes more sense that an Eternal God created the soul, than eternal chemicals created the soul. I don't believe Jesus's Words, Shakespere's Hamlet, and a Boing 747 evolved from nonliving chemicals.
If you can believe non-living chemicals that have always existed have the God-like ability to create life. Why can't you believe that a God that has always existed has the God-like ability to create life.
Ok, prove that a soul exists, since the existance of a soul is required for the existence of a god (according to you).
No one mentioned "non-living chemicals". Don't try that with us. That is an argument from incredulity.
And by proof, your personal opinion doesn't count. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
|
| Edited by - pleco on 09/18/2006 07:46:40 |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 08:20:27 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Mooner:
One has to cherry-pick Luther very cautiously to avoid consuming his virulently hateful, poisonous fruit.
He was a complicated man. So wrong headed in some areas, as his anti Semitism demonstrates, and yet extremely progressive in other areas. For example he was willing to accommodate science in his theology, not taking every word of the bible literally, unlike many of the current fundamentalists.
quote:
Luther and Science:
Luther accepted astronomy as a science, but rejected astrology as a superstition because it cannot be confirmed by demonstration. Astrology, according to Luther, is idolatry and violates the first commandment. He was both amused and distressed by Melanchthon's interest in astrology, a belief system that was widely accepted at the time. Instead, for example, Luther was ready to accept the conclusion of the astronomers that the moon is the smallest and lowest of the "stars." He interpreted the Scripture that called both the sun and the moon "great lights" as accommodating itself to the appearance of the phenomena [9]. Had this principle of accommodation based on interpreting the Bible in a phenomenological way been maintained after Luther's death, the tragic conflict in the modern era between science and biblical literalism could probably have been avoided.
Bolding mine.
It is possible and even likely, in that Luther saw no real conflict between science and religion based on the principle of accommodation, that he would not have had the same objections to evolution that the current fundamentalist protestants have.
This may be a small hijacking of this thread but I think a discussion of Luther directly relates back to several of GK Paul's claims about both the Nazi influences and evolution. Martin Luther is a fascinating subject in general. Especially given that he is pretty much the undisputed “Father of Protestantism”.
|
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 09:58:19 [Permalink]
|
Thats priceless....
GK Paul bashed Darwin and Haekel because some evil people took them out of context, then references Luther (massively anti-semetic bigot) without batting an eye to support one of his own arguments.
When are you going to stop preaching at us and start engaging in rational debate GK Paul?
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 15:03:49 [Permalink]
|
Thanks, Kil. I hadn't known that about Luther's "accommodation" of science. In this, at least, he was indeed ahead of many of the modern fundies, including all the Creationists.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 09/18/2006 16:50:40 |
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 15:43:17 [Permalink]
|
GK Paul wrote: quote:
If you can believe non-living chemicals that have always existed have the God-like ability to create life. Why can't you believe that a God that has always existed has the God-like ability to create life.
Where to even start with this statement. First of all, it is biased with the use of the phrase "God-like ability". The emergence of life and eventually highly complex and sentient lifeforms such as humans is both a question and as of yet a mystery. To say that the cause of this emergence was "God-like" assumes "God" means something. What does "God" mean? Is god separate from the natural world, or part of it? Is god him/her/itself sentient, or not? What other characteristics does him/her/it have? If I say something is plant-like, I can then point to an actual plant and easily describe the characteristics that a plant holds in common with whatever I am calling "plant-like". But what sort of god are you pointing to when you say the emergence of life is "God-like"?
Indeed, the emergence of life is mentioned in many religious myths which include all sorts of gods. There is the Hindu myth of Brahma, the creator. There is the Greek myth of the sky and earth deities and their offspring the Titans. There is the Australian Aborigine myths of god-like ancestors who transformed the earth and made it to be in its present form. And then there is the god of the ancient Jews, and of Christians, and Muslims' Allah.
Alas, we cannot point to any one of these gods in actuality, because they only exist for sure in words, writings, and thoughts. So what exactly does it mean to say something is "God-like"?
Moving on, you continue (no surprise) to ignore points already made by other people, such as the points made by myself and several people about abiogenesis, and your horribly poor knowledge of evolution in the first place, which puts you in no position to decide how likely it is to be true. The answer as to why I tend toward naturalistic abiogenesis regarding the mystery of the origins of life is because it is currently the most simple answer. And from reason and experience we know that simpler answers are often the most correct.
However, for the true skeptic, the most intellectually honest answer is that life is (so far) a mystery.
(Edited slightly for clarity - I had too many pronouns.) |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
| Edited by - marfknox on 09/18/2006 15:47:52 |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 15:52:28 [Permalink]
|
| Not only that, Marf, but also GK Paul's "non-living chemicals that have always existed" is a gross misrepresentation of current scientific knowledge. Big Bang cosmology stipulates that no matter was ever eternal. Only fringe self-deluded people think matter was eternal such as in a static universe. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 03:38:42 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
GK Paul said:
quote:
And you believe the "living" bacteria was created by "nonliving" chemicals. I believe that takes greater faith than Christianity does.
The sheer ignorance contained within that statement is staggering to behold.
Looks like I am gonna have to start an abiogenesis thread for you.
I stand by my statement. I believe it takes more faith to believe humans evolved from non-living chemicals than it takes to believe in God. All the fancy scientific terminology in the world won't change my mind. Now if humans ever created a one-celled living organism that was able to reproduce on its own from non-living chemicals, I might reconsider my faith statement but I believe humans will never be able to do that. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 09/21/2006 04:42:52 |
|
|
|
GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 04:03:59 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
We are here aren't we. To me it makes more sense that an Eternal God created the soul, than eternal chemicals created the soul. I don't believe Jesus's Words, Shakespere's Hamlet, and a Boing 747 evolved from nonliving chemicals.
If you can believe non-living chemicals that have always existed have the God-like ability to create life. Why can't you believe that a God that has always existed has the God-like ability to create life.
Ok, prove that a soul exists, since the existance of a soul is required for the existence of a god (according to you).
No one mentioned "non-living chemicals". Don't try that with us. That is an argument from incredulity.
And by proof, your personal opinion doesn't count.
Have you ever given to charity, have you ever given money to a transient, have you ever felt sorry for someone, have you ever felt righteous indignation, have you ever felt happy at a job well done, have you ever felt guilty about doing something. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
|
|
|
GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 04:10:24 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Not only that, Marf, but also GK Paul's "non-living chemicals that have always existed" is a gross misrepresentation of current scientific knowledge. Big Bang cosmology stipulates that no matter was ever eternal. Only fringe self-deluded people think matter was eternal such as in a static universe.
Do you believe neutrons, protons , and electrons, have always existed, and if not where did they come from. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
|
|
|
GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 04:22:32 [Permalink]
|
| With regard to Luther. Well first of all I didn't use him to support an argument. I used him to describe Lucifer when someonoe asked about Lucifer. Luther had his faults just like Moses, King David, Peter the Apostle, and many others in the Bible. St. Augustine had an illigitimate child as a young man. God uses the imperfect because we are all imperfect. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 09/21/2006 04:25:03 |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 04:28:06 [Permalink]
|
GK Paul said:
quote:
All the fancy scientific terminology in the world won't change my mind.
In other words, you don't care what the evidence says at all. Your mind is closed to it.
Which is fairly obvious from your refusal to even acknowledge that evolution and abiogenesis are not the same thing.
What will it take to get you to even look at the evidence for evolution? Are you so closed off to anything but religious dogma that you will deny reality in favor of your false worldview?
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
