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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
 Posted - 09/25/2006 : 14:25:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GK Paul:
The example of King David whose house Christ descended from ...
Maybe you can clear this up for me. How exactly did Jesus descend from David? According to Matthew, it went like this:
David
Solomon
Roboam
Abia
Asa
Josaphat
Joram
Ozias
Joatham
Achaz
Ezekias
Manasses
Amon
Josias
Jechonias
Salathiel
Zorobabel
Abiud
Eliakim
Azor
Sadoc
Achim
Eliud
Eleazar
Matthan
Jacob
Joseph
Jesus
But according to Luke, it went like this:
David
Nathan
Mattatha
Menan
Melea
Eliakim
Jonan
Joseph
Juda
Simeon
Levi
Matthat
Jorim
Eliezer
Jose
Er
Elmodam
Cosam
Addi
Melchi
Neri
Salathiel
Zorobabel
Rhesa
Joanna
Juda
Joseph
Semei
Mattathias
Maath
Nagge
Esli
Naum
Amos
Mattathias
Joseph
Janna
Melchi
Levi
Matthat
Heli
Joseph
Jesus
Hmmmmm. 28 names on one list, 43 on the other, and other than Jesus and David, only 3 names appear on both lists! Which innerant part of the holey bible am I to believe?
Joseph was not Jesus's blood father, only His adopted father. I read one account that said one of the geneologies was Mary's. http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/geneal.htm
I said earlier, I'm not a "literalist". God is not the Bible. The Bible is the best humanity could do in their fallen state to understand God. And while the writers of the Bible were probalbly closer to God than anyone else at the time, they were still far from God because of original sin. Any contradictions only show that humanity was imperfect and incapable of returning to the glory of God thru their own efforts. A Savior was the only way to return man to God. And even after Christ came, man could still sin, but now humanity could call upon the name of that Savior for forgiveness (instead of making an animal sacrifice or even a human sacrifice as cultures all over the world have done).
[/quote] |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 09/25/2006 15:26:17 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 15:25:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
... I said earlier, I'm not a "literalist". God is not the Bible. The Bible is the best humanity could do in their fallen state to understand God. And while the writers of the Bible were probalbly closer to God than anyone else at the time, they were still far from God because of original sin. Any contradictions only show that humanity was imperfect and incapable of returning to the glory of God thru their own efforts. A Savior was the only way to return man to God. And even after Christ came, man could still sin, but now humanity could call upon the name of that Savior for forgiveness (instead of making an animal sacrifice or even a human sacrifice as cultures all over the world have done).
GK Paul, are you admitting that each book of the bible had a human author, that it contains contradictions, and is imperfect?
That it contains material that just might be unreliable due to its human authors?
By what means do you discern the reliable parts from the unreliable? |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 15:35:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
... I said earlier, I'm not a "literalist". God is not the Bible. The Bible is the best humanity could do in their fallen state to understand God. And while the writers of the Bible were probalbly closer to God than anyone else at the time, they were still far from God because of original sin. Any contradictions only show that humanity was imperfect and incapable of returning to the glory of God thru their own efforts. A Savior was the only way to return man to God. And even after Christ came, man could still sin, but now humanity could call upon the name of that Savior for forgiveness (instead of making an animal sacrifice or even a human sacrifice as cultures all over the world have done).
GK Paul, are you admitting that each book of the bible had a human author, that it contains contradictions, and is imperfect?
That it contains material that just might be unreliable due to its human authors?
By what means do you discern the reliable parts from the unreliable?
The Holy Spirit. Christ said He would send a "Comforter" (The Holy Spirit). Mainline Christianity believes in the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 09/25/2006 15:37:06 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 16:57:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
... I said earlier, I'm not a "literalist". God is not the Bible. The Bible is the best humanity could do in their fallen state to understand God. And while the writers of the Bible were probalbly closer to God than anyone else at the time, they were still far from God because of original sin. Any contradictions only show that humanity was imperfect and incapable of returning to the glory of God thru their own efforts. A Savior was the only way to return man to God. And even after Christ came, man could still sin, but now humanity could call upon the name of that Savior for forgiveness (instead of making an animal sacrifice or even a human sacrifice as cultures all over the world have done).
GK Paul, are you admitting that each book of the bible had a human author, that it contains contradictions, and is imperfect?
That it contains material that just might be unreliable due to its human authors?
By what means do you discern the reliable parts from the unreliable?
The Holy Spirit. Christ said He would send a "Comforter" (The Holy Spirit). Mainline Christianity believes in the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
GK Paul, please provide a definition of "Holy Spirit" and evidence of its existence. In any sound discussion, the major terms must be understood and agreed upon.
In this discussion, however, you have several terms, such as "God the Father," "God the Son," "Holy Spirit," and "soul" which desperately require definition, not to mention evidence of their existence. Otherwise, it would appear to us that you are just playing a shifting game of throwing in new undefined mystery terms every time someone asks you a question. As in this case, where you avoided an answer about fallible humans writing the Gospels, instead bringing in "Holy Spirit" as though the mere mention of the term were some kind of answer.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 18:42:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
... I said earlier, I'm not a "literalist". God is not the Bible. The Bible is the best humanity could do in their fallen state to understand God. And while the writers of the Bible were probalbly closer to God than anyone else at the time, they were still far from God because of original sin. Any contradictions only show that humanity was imperfect and incapable of returning to the glory of God thru their own efforts. A Savior was the only way to return man to God. And even after Christ came, man could still sin, but now humanity could call upon the name of that Savior for forgiveness (instead of making an animal sacrifice or even a human sacrifice as cultures all over the world have done).
GK Paul, are you admitting that each book of the bible had a human author, that it contains contradictions, and is imperfect?
That it contains material that just might be unreliable due to its human authors?
By what means do you discern the reliable parts from the unreliable?
The Holy Spirit. Christ said He would send a "Comforter" (The Holy Spirit). Mainline Christianity believes in the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Why wasn't the Holy Spirit active when Bible was compiled? If He had removed all inconsistancies during compilation, then much grif worldwide through history would have been avoided. There wouldn't be so many different protestant congregations, or even a difference between Catholics and Protestants.
The Holy Spirit may inform me of a different interpretation that He discloses to you. Which Holy Spirit interpretation is right? Mine or yours? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 20:36:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
... I said earlier, I'm not a "literalist". God is not the Bible. The Bible is the best humanity could do in their fallen state to understand God. And while the writers of the Bible were probalbly closer to God than anyone else at the time, they were still far from God because of original sin. Any contradictions only show that humanity was imperfect and incapable of returning to the glory of God thru their own efforts. A Savior was the only way to return man to God. And even after Christ came, man could still sin, but now humanity could call upon the name of that Savior for forgiveness (instead of making an animal sacrifice or even a human sacrifice as cultures all over the world have done).
GK Paul, are you admitting that each book of the bible had a human author, that it contains contradictions, and is imperfect?
That it contains material that just might be unreliable due to its human authors?
By what means do you discern the reliable parts from the unreliable?
The Holy Spirit. Christ said He would send a "Comforter" (The Holy Spirit). Mainline Christianity believes in the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Why wasn't the Holy Spirit active when Bible was compiled? If He had removed all inconsistancies during compilation, then much grif worldwide through history would have been avoided. There wouldn't be so many different protestant congregations, or even a difference between Catholics and Protestants.
The Holy Spirit may inform me of a different interpretation that He discloses to you. Which Holy Spirit interpretation is right? Mine or yours?
The bible talks of false prophets snd false Messiahs. If a person or church produces much good fruit you can assume they are closer to God than those that produce bad fruit. As Christ said, those branches that produce bad fruit will be cut from the tree, gathered together, and thrown into the fire. Those that produce good fruit will be pruned so that they may produce even more good fruit. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 20:53:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
... I said earlier, I'm not a "literalist". God is not the Bible. The Bible is the best humanity could do in their fallen state to understand God. And while the writers of the Bible were probalbly closer to God than anyone else at the time, they were still far from God because of original sin. Any contradictions only show that humanity was imperfect and incapable of returning to the glory of God thru their own efforts. A Savior was the only way to return man to God. And even after Christ came, man could still sin, but now humanity could call upon the name of that Savior for forgiveness (instead of making an animal sacrifice or even a human sacrifice as cultures all over the world have done).
GK Paul, are you admitting that each book of the bible had a human author, that it contains contradictions, and is imperfect?
That it contains material that just might be unreliable due to its human authors?
By what means do you discern the reliable parts from the unreliable?
The Holy Spirit. Christ said He would send a "Comforter" (The Holy Spirit). Mainline Christianity believes in the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
GK Paul, please provide a definition of "Holy Spirit" and evidence of its existence. In any sound discussion, the major terms must be understood and agreed upon.
In this discussion, however, you have several terms, such as "God the Father," "God the Son," "Holy Spirit," and "soul" which desperately require definition, not to mention evidence of their existence. Otherwise, it would appear to us that you are just playing a shifting game of throwing in new undefined mystery terms every time someone asks you a question. As in this case, where you avoided an answer about fallible humans writing the Gospels, instead bringing in "Holy Spirit" as though the mere mention of the term were some kind of answer.
My response is to humble yourself and repent to God for any wrongdoings you've done in your life. It's not necessary for you to understand God or the Bible completely at this time. But Christians believe if you repent and are sincere God will reveal Himself to you over time and you'll have your answer. Don't put faith in my answers. Put faith in the answers God will reveal to you over time. Its not going to be something you can see or even completely explain to others, but you'll believe its true, and that's all that's really important anyway. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 09/25/2006 20:57:52 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 20:55:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
The bible talks of false prophets snd false Messiahs. If a person or church produces much good fruit you can assume they are closer to God than those that produce bad fruit. As Christ said, those branches that produce bad fruit will be cut from the tree, gathered together, and thrown into the fire. Those that produce good fruit will be pruned so that they may produce even more good fruit.
What practical applications does this have, beside for the gardener?
I mean, how do you prune a congregation?
After nearly 2000 years, the Catholic Church is still in business, and the largest Christian congregation in America. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 21:00:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
Logic 101, it is an absurdity for something to "exist" and "not exist" at the same time. Six can't be a six and not be a six at the same time. Pretty much the same with the other example.
That has nothing to do with proving that your god can't make 7 equal to 6. It does show, as expected, and as others have mentioned, that you'll continue to resort to dishonesty in order to support your delusion. You've got no integrity, GK Paul.
quote:
Regarding the definintion you seek (as I said earlier) I would recommend reading the 4 Gospels. Otherwise I would look up "true", "supreme", and "God" in your dictionary.
I'm not seeking a definition. I'm asking you to provide your definition of the terms you're using in this discussion. Obviously you're not able to define your terms. In fact it's becoming clear that you simply won't provide an honest answer to pretty much any question you're asked.
But let me ask this again, why do you continue to avoid the issue of your lack of honesty? How do you rationalize in your mind that in order to support your superstition you feel it's appropriate to resort to lying? Does your bogeyman god approve of you doing all that lying to defend its existence? Does your book of fables condone you continuously and knowingly bearing false witness?
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| Edited by - GeeMack on 09/25/2006 22:41:58 |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 22:49:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
Logic 101, it is an absurdity for something to "exist" and "not exist" at the same time. Six can't be a six and not be a six at the same time. Pretty much the same with the other example.
That has nothing to do with proving that your god can't make 7 equal to 6. It does show, as expected, and as others have mentioned, that you'll continue to resort to dishonesty in order to support your delusion. You've got no integrity, GK Paul.
quote:
Regarding the definintion you seek (as I said earlier) I would recommend reading the 4 Gospels. Otherwise I would look up "true", "supreme", and "God" in your dictionary.
I'm not seeking a definition. I'm asking you to provide your definition of the terms you're using in this discussion. Obviously you're not able to define your terms. In fact it's becoming clear that you simply won't provide an honest answer to pretty much any question you're asked.
But let me ask this again, why do you continue to avoid the issue of your lack of honesty? How do you rationalize in your mind that in order to support your superstition you feel it's appropriate to resort to lying? Does your bogeyman god approve of you doing all that lying to defend its existence? Does your book of fables condone you continuously and knowingly bearing false witness?
If your not seeking a definition than why take the time to give one. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 22:52:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
The bible talks of false prophets snd false Messiahs. If a person or church produces much good fruit you can assume they are closer to God than those that produce bad fruit. As Christ said, those branches that produce bad fruit will be cut from the tree, gathered together, and thrown into the fire. Those that produce good fruit will be pruned so that they may produce even more good fruit.
What practical applications does this have, beside for the gardener?
I mean, how do you prune a congregation?
After nearly 2000 years, the Catholic Church is still in business, and the largest Christian congregation in America.
Pruning is one of the current Pope's favorite expressions. In fact he wants to prune the Catholic church. Its very appropriate. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 04:34:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
... I said earlier, I'm not a "literalist". God is not the Bible. The Bible is the best humanity could do in their fallen state to understand God. And while the writers of the Bible were probalbly closer to God than anyone else at the time, they were still far from God because of original sin. Any contradictions only show that humanity was imperfect and incapable of returning to the glory of God thru their own efforts. A Savior was the only way to return man to God. And even after Christ came, man could still sin, but now humanity could call upon the name of that Savior for forgiveness (instead of making an animal sacrifice or even a human sacrifice as cultures all over the world have done).
GK Paul, are you admitting that each book of the bible had a human author, that it contains contradictions, and is imperfect?
That it contains material that just might be unreliable due to its human authors?
By what means do you discern the reliable parts from the unreliable?
The Holy Spirit. Christ said He would send a "Comforter" (The Holy Spirit). Mainline Christianity believes in the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Ok. How do you know this is reliable based upon your statement that the bible's human authors were unreliable scribes? Or is this just another, later, human interpretation? Potentially heaping imperfect interpretation upon imperfect content.
edited to add the last sentence |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 09/26/2006 04:40:05 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 04:48:07 [Permalink]
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Yawn....he can't even prove his god even exists...heck, he can't prove that any god exists.
Skeptics are people who evaluate all claims of fact using science, logic, and critical thinking.
He can't back up his claims of fact. Unfortunately, he is either too intellectualy dishonest or too ignorant to recognize this. And when cornered on a particular topic, he resorts to the standard substandard tactics that we've seen by others time and time again.
Oh, and if this post hurts your feelings, then grow a backbone.
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 09/26/2006 04:54:23 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 05:22:29 [Permalink]
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GK Paul replied:quote:
My response is to humble yourself and repent to God for any wrongdoings you've done in your life. It's not necessary for you to understand God or the Bible completely at this time. But Christians believe if you repent and are sincere God will reveal Himself to you over time and you'll have your answer. Don't put faith in my answers. Put faith in the answers God will reveal to you over time. Its not going to be something you can see or even completely explain to others, but you'll believe its true, and that's all that's really important anyway.
So, in response to my request, you will not or cannot provide either definition or evidence of terms such as "soul," "God the Father," "God the Son" or "Holy Spirit"? But meanwhile, I should humble myself to a completely undefined and unevidenced "God"?
If you can't or won't use even the most basic rules of logic and evidence, why did you ever start such a discussion with skeptics who can and do use them, and who in fact insist upon such rational niceties? You are spiralling about in circular "logic."
If Einstein had published his E=MC2 equation, but had refused to explain what E, M, and C stood for, it would have been as meaningless and nonsensical as this irrational nonsense you're wasting your time writing.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 05:42:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
... I said earlier, I'm not a "literalist". God is not the Bible. The Bible is the best humanity could do in their fallen state to understand God. And while the writers of the Bible were probalbly closer to God than anyone else at the time, they were still far from God because of original sin. Any contradictions only show that humanity was imperfect and incapable of returning to the glory of God thru their own efforts. A Savior was the only way to return man to God. And even after Christ came, man could still sin, but now humanity could call upon the name of that Savior for forgiveness (instead of making an animal sacrifice or even a human sacrifice as cultures all over the world have done).
GK Paul, are you admitting that each book of the bible had a human author, that it contains contradictions, and is imperfect?
That it contains material that just might be unreliable due to its human authors?
By what means do you discern the reliable parts from the unreliable?
The Holy Spirit. Christ said He would send a "Comforter" (The Holy Spirit). Mainline Christianity believes in the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Ah, the old "magic decoder ring" assertion. I see.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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