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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2006 : 03:06:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
As far a free will. Genesis chapter 6 verse 5 shows how God actually regretted making man when He saw how the great majority became evil. This proves that the God of the Bible did not know how His human creations would act in the future and thus proves that the God of the Bible can and does give total free will.
No, this merely shows that the God of the Bible is as fallible, or more so, as the peoples who wrote that tome. The Bible is supposed to have been inspired by a deity suffering from early alzheimer's? Self inflicted alzheimer's, if he/she willfully forgot.
Seems likely, considering the screw-ups our bodies, and in some cases minds, contain. Or is an improper spine, weak knees, and a potential time bomb on the end of our large intestines some sort of arcaine punishment for, perhaps, a lack of reverence on the part some ancient proto-Jew in Eden?
Or is he merely an inept craftsman?
GK, don't you see how silly all of that is? What, after all, is evil, aside from the usual that is condemned in all cultures? Is it the afore-mentioned lack of reverence to that which must remain mysterous, for who knows what perverse reason? I don't know, and therefore, I, an infidel, am as God, eh?
"INFIDEL, n. In New York, one who does not believe in the Christian religion; in Constantinople, one who does. (See GIAOUR.)
A kind of scoundrel imperfectly reverent of, and niggardly contributory to, divines, ecclesiastics, popes, parsons, canons, monks, mollahs, voodoos, presbyters, hierophants, prelates, obeah-men, abbes, nuns, missionaries, exhorters, deacons, friars, hadjis, high-priests, muezzins, brahmins, medicine-men, confessors, eminences, elders, primates, prebendaries, pilgrims, prophets, imaums, beneficiaries, clerks, vicars-choral, archbishops, bishops, abbots, priors, preachers, padres, abbotesses, caloyers, palmers, curates, patriarchs, bonezs, santons, beadsmen, canonesses, residentiaries, diocesans, deans, subdeans, rural deans, abdals, charm-sellers, archdeacons, hierarchs, class-leaders, incumbents, capitulars, sheiks, talapoins, postulants, scribes, gooroos, precentors, beadles, fakeers, sextons, reverences, revivalists, cenobites, perpetual curates, chaplains, mudjoes, readers, novices, vicars, pastors, rabbis, ulemas, lamas, sacristans, vergers, dervises, lectors, church wardens, cardinals, prioresses, suffragans, acolytes, rectors, cures, sophis, mutifs and pumpums. " -- Ambrose Bierce
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2006 : 03:18:06 [Permalink]
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GK Paul said:
quote:
As far a free will. Genesis chapter 6 verse 6 shows how God actually regretted making man when He saw how the great majority became evil. This proves that the God of the Bible did not know how His human creations would act in the future and thus proves that the God of the Bible can and does give total free will.
As if "the bible" is proof of anything....
But granting you that for this brief moment:
All it "proves" is that your god is not omnipotent.
And seriously, if your god isn't omnipotent, then it is nothing more than a powerfull and petty being to demand worship by us humans.
A tyrant, a petty tyrant at that.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2006 : 03:28:03 [Permalink]
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| With regard to Hitler and the Jews. Hitler might have used Luther's wrong belief about the Jews to justify his hatred of the Jews. But he couldn't use Luther to justify his hatred of the French, the Slavs, the Communists, the English, the Gypsies, the handicapped, the mentally ill etc. But he could use the Nazis concept of master race, which fit nicely with the theory of evolution and the survival of the fittest (aka natural selection) to justify his actions against those other groups. I'm not saying Hitler and the Nazis idealogy has anything to do with the possible veracity of evolution, I'm just saying evolution theories fit in nicely with their beliefs. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 09/23/2006 04:07:29 |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2006 : 03:48:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
GK Paul said:
quote:
As far a free will. Genesis chapter 6 verse 6 shows how God actually regretted making man when He saw how the great majority became evil. This proves that the God of the Bible did not know how His human creations would act in the future and thus proves that the God of the Bible can and does give total free will.
As if "the bible" is proof of anything....
But granting you that for this brief moment:
All it "proves" is that your god is not omnipotent.
And seriously, if your god isn't omnipotent, then it is nothing more than a powerfull and petty being to demand worship by us humans.
A tyrant, a petty tyrant at that.
God can't make 7 equal to 6, He can't build a rock so heavy that He can't lift it... Do you want free will or don't you. Genesis 6:6 proves the God of the Bible has given the gift of total free will. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2006 : 06:47:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
God can't make 7 equal to 6...
Prove it.
quote:
... He can't build a rock so heavy that He can't lift it...
Prove it.
quote:
Do you want free will or don't you.
For all practical purposes I have free will. I am an autonomous being, subject of course to the laws of physics, but independent of the control of other beings, and certainly not living under the delusion that I face the threat of eternal damnation by some mythical terrorist bogeyman.
quote:
Genesis 6:6 proves the God of the Bible has given the gift of total free will.
That story is not proof of anything. There are people who claim to share your faith who would disagree with your interpretation. Are you right, or are they? I'm sure you'll agree that it is exceedingly arrogant of you to believe your particular interpretation of your book of fables, among the several billion, is the correct one.
And how about laying out that definition of "True Supreme God"? You claim to believe in a bogeyman who would torture you forever if you don't follow its rules, a set of rules, by the way, on which no two of the faithful can even agree. You seem to devote your faith to that evil mythical being, one which you aren't willing or able to even define, yet which you apparently allow to rule your life with its terrorist tactics. You tag it as omnipotent when that suits your whim, and you tag it as wholly incapable of certain seemingly simple tasks when that trait supports your delusion. Yes or no, can you or can you not define that god?
And you continue to avoid the issue of your lying. How do you rationalize in your mind that in order to support your superstition you regularly resort to dishonesty? Don't you suppose your bogeyman god disapproves of you doing all that lying to defend its existence and spread its good word? Is there someplace in your book of fables where it says you are allowed to continuously and knowingly bear false witness?
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2006 : 07:17:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
With regard to Hitler and the Jews. Hitler might have used Luther's wrong belief about the Jews to justify his hatred of the Jews. But he couldn't use Luther to justify his hatred of the French, the Slavs, the Communists, the English, the Gypsies, the handicapped, the mentally ill etc. But he could use the Nazis concept of master race, which fit nicely with the theory of evolution and the survival of the fittest (aka natural selection) to justify his actions against those other groups. I'm not saying Hitler and the Nazis idealogy has anything to do with the possible veracity of evolution, I'm just saying evolution theories fit in nicely with their beliefs.
Well, that's something of an improvement, I suppose.
But it's rather like me saying that Hitler was a Christian (he was; a confirmed Cathilic and at one time an alter boy) and therefore, Christianity is evil -- my opinions on Christianity not withstanding. If Charles Manson likes Snickers Bars, does that make the candy poisonious?
So I'm sure that you can see exactly how citing Hitler is a red herring. Further, there is a lot more than natural selection working in evolution; "survival of the fittest" is just another catch phrase to poorly describe a complex process.
And so, another red herring is laid to rest. |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2006 : 07:22:42 [Permalink]
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Or saying the Christian Identity idea:
quote:
...the people of Europe are God's servant people according to the promises that were given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It further asserts that the early European tribes were really the ten lost tribes of Israel and therefore the rightful heirs to God's promises.
fits in nicely with christianity, therefore Christianity is evil.
If you are interested, please read this. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2006 : 07:28:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
With regard to Hitler and the Jews. Hitler might have used Luther's wrong belief about the Jews to justify his hatred of the Jews. But he couldn't use Luther to justify his hatred of the French, the Slavs, the Communists, the English, the Gypsies, the handicapped, the mentally ill etc. But he could use the Nazis concept of master race, which fit nicely with the theory of evolution and the survival of the fittest (aka natural selection) to justify his actions against those other groups. I'm not saying Hitler and the Nazis idealogy has anything to do with the possible veracity of evolution, I'm just saying evolution theories fit in nicely with their beliefs.
You know what? The above is pretty true. But it still begs the question of why Coulter would single out evolution without mentioning other Nazi influences. Especially Christian influences.
If we agree that it says nothing about the validity of evolution then Coulter was being dishonest by playing the Nazi card with regard to evolution. As you have seen, there is a Christian card that can be played too. It goes to the heart of what I have been saying. And it is mostly about Coulter and not about the Nazis. She was very selective in what influences she would vilify. She left alone that which would weaken her case. There is really no nice way to put it. She lied by omission. And she had to or she has no case. If she had a critical thought in her head (and I believe that she does but she is cynical enough to believe that her readers don't) she would have understood the Nazi case for what it was and just left it alone because it says nothing about evolution or even modern day Christianity. She counted on people's stupidity and their lack of ability to connect the dots. Again, it was yellow journalism and again a great big red herring presented by a person who has little or no ethical standards when it comes to making her case...
Edited to add:
We now have a copy (used) of “Godless”. I have only scanned it but her opening statements about evolution had me laughing out loud.
Michelle wants to check all of her sources and also find where she quoted or paraphrased but didn't source as with the Sartre quote which she got wrong. The investigation into the Sartre quote makes us wonder just how many things she got wrong.
Attacking Coulter is easy. Her politics are not what is important here. But as a writer of books, she has an obligation to source correctly. So the plan is to take an academic approach to the sourcing issue.
Hopefully, this will shed some light on how honest she really is without resorting to any political bias we may have about her. This is a nuts and bolts investigation about proper sourcing.
It will also take some time. But the results of the research will eventually make its way to SFN.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2006 : 08:51:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul:
The example of King David whose house Christ descended from ...
Maybe you can clear this up for me. How exactly did Jesus descend from David? According to Matthew, it went like this:
David
Solomon
Roboam
Abia
Asa
Josaphat
Joram
Ozias
Joatham
Achaz
Ezekias
Manasses
Amon
Josias
Jechonias
Salathiel
Zorobabel
Abiud
Eliakim
Azor
Sadoc
Achim
Eliud
Eleazar
Matthan
Jacob
Joseph
Jesus
But according to Luke, it went like this:
David
Nathan
Mattatha
Menan
Melea
Eliakim
Jonan
Joseph
Juda
Simeon
Levi
Matthat
Jorim
Eliezer
Jose
Er
Elmodam
Cosam
Addi
Melchi
Neri
Salathiel
Zorobabel
Rhesa
Joanna
Juda
Joseph
Semei
Mattathias
Maath
Nagge
Esli
Naum
Amos
Mattathias
Joseph
Janna
Melchi
Levi
Matthat
Heli
Joseph
Jesus
Hmmmmm. 28 names on one list, 43 on the other, and other than Jesus and David, only 3 names appear on both lists! Which innerant part of the holey bible am I to believe? |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2006 : 17:22:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Like I saw on TV once, this movie, and this little girl got like possessed by the Devil. So now when I see little girls, I run the other way!
LOL. This is a gem in this threads context.
quote:
Hmmmmm. 28 names on one list, 43 on the other, and other than Jesus and David, only 3 names appear on both lists! Which innerant part of the holey bible am I to believe?
There you go again, actually reading the bible with your mind instead of your heart. After all 6 = 7. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 09/24/2006 17:47:09 |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2006 : 22:27:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
The example of King David whose house Christ descended from shows us that God will forgive sin if we are sincere when we repent and David did repent. A prophet of God told David that a son of his would die for his adultery with Bathsheba and in fact the first child of David and Bathsheba did die very young... David had great faith in God, and God rewarded him for that faith but he was far from perfect.
So your loving god killed an innocent baby to punish it's parents. This is the logic of a terrorist. I and any atheist/agnostic that I know considers this behaviour completely abhorent. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 10:19:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
But he could use the Nazis concept of master race, which fit nicely with the theory of evolution and the survival of the fittest (aka natural selection) to justify his actions against those other groups. I'm not saying Hitler and the Nazis idealogy has anything to do with the possible veracity of evolution, I'm just saying evolution theories fit in nicely with their beliefs.
The statement above just proves that you think that the Nazies were just about as clueless about evolution as you are, GK Paul.
"Survival of the fittest" doesn't necessarily mean "survival of the strongest", and it does definitly not work on individual level, but on the level of species.
The Nazies had some twisted idea of what evolution says, and guess what? Nature selected Nazi-Germany for extinction. So much for the Master Race... 
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 13:11:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
But he could use the Nazis concept of master race, which fit nicely with the theory of evolution and the survival of the fittest (aka natural selection) to justify his actions against those other groups. I'm not saying Hitler and the Nazis idealogy has anything to do with the possible veracity of evolution, I'm just saying evolution theories fit in nicely with their beliefs.
The statement above just proves that you think that the Nazies were just about as clueless about evolution as you are, GK Paul.
"Survival of the fittest" doesn't necessarily mean "survival of the strongest", and it does definitly not work on individual level, but on the level of species.
The Nazies had some twisted idea of what evolution says, and guess what? Nature selected Nazi-Germany for extinction. So much for the Master Race...
I asked earlier if you believe eletrons, neutrons, and protons have always existed and if not where did they come from. Do you have an opinion on that? |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 13:35:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
God can't make 7 equal to 6...
Prove it.
quote:
... He can't build a rock so heavy that He can't lift it...
Prove it.
quote:
Do you want free will or don't you.
For all practical purposes I have free will. I am an autonomous being, subject of course to the laws of physics, but independent of the control of other beings, and certainly not living under the delusion that I face the threat of eternal damnation by some mythical terrorist bogeyman.
quote:
Genesis 6:6 proves the God of the Bible has given the gift of total free will.
That story is not proof of anything. There are people who claim to share your faith who would disagree with your interpretation. Are you right, or are they? I'm sure you'll agree that it is exceedingly arrogant of you to believe your particular interpretation of your book of fables, among the several billion, is the correct one.
And how about laying out that definition of "True Supreme God"? You claim to believe in a bogeyman who would torture you forever if you don't follow its rules, a set of rules, by the way, on which no two of the faithful can even agree. You seem to devote your faith to that evil mythical being, one which you aren't willing or able to even define, yet which you apparently allow to rule your life with its terrorist tactics. You tag it as omnipotent when that suits your whim, and you tag it as wholly incapable of certain seemingly simple tasks when that trait supports your delusion. Yes or no, can you or can you not define that god?
And you continue to avoid the issue of your lying. How do you rationalize in your mind that in order to support your superstition you regularly resort to dishonesty? Don't you suppose your bogeyman god disapproves of you doing all that lying to defend its existence and spread its good word? Is there someplace in your book of fables where it says you are allowed to continuously and knowingly bear false witness?
Logic 101, it is an absurdity for something to "exist" and "not exist" at the same time. Six can't be a six and not be a six at the same time. Pretty much the same with the other example.
Regarding the definintion you seek (as I said earlier) I would recommend reading the 4 Gospels. Otherwise I would look up "true", "supreme", and "God" in your dictionary. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 13:58:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I asked earlier if you believe eletrons, neutrons, and protons have always existed and if not where did they come from. Do you have an opinion on that?
I've already answered you. That you don't care to pay attention isn't really my fault is it?
Nucleosynthesis within the scope of the Big Bang theory seems to be the best scientific explanation for the origin of matter.
But I think I know what you are trying to get at:
The enery released at time=0 that caused the Big Bang is your idea of the divine creation of the Universe. And really, there is no scientific way yet to describe that event, or its cause. We only know that after that, the Universe has unfolded as the Laws of Nature prescribe it to do. Like a ticking clock.
I see nothing divine about that.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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