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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 10/06/2006 : 11:58:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
They want Bush and the Republicans out, to be replaced by...what?
What does it matter? The WCW doesn't control the elections, nor do they have power to change the Constitution without help. Their short-term goal is the same as mine, and I can easily see that their long-term goals are not likely to be accomplished in my lifetime (given their history of ineffectiveness).
The idea that this radical minority - a minority I'd never even heard of until this thread (that's how ineffective they are) - represents such a serious threat to democracy as we know it seems to me to be giving them power. You think people here are empowering them through laziness, but you're actively giving them status simply by being so terrified of them.quote:
You can be much more effective by actively participating in the campaigns of candidates you support. Even if it means just stuffing envelopes for them. Making phone calls to get out the vote.
Real hard work. Shitty work. But much more effective.
Now, there was a good point, one that could actually be discussed. Too bad you ruined it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 12:49:54 [Permalink]
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| I am participating actively in the campaigns, Luke. What makes you think a person can only manage one task? I have been working on the Darcy Burner campaign in my district which has a beatable Republican. And I have been volunteering at the local moveon.org office calling for callers to call voters before the election. We are trying to get people who will call an hour a week from now until election into a system Moveon has set up. The callers get instructions, a script, and connect to the Internet for their list of Democrats to call. It's a get out the vote campaign. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 13:38:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
... You are choosing to clamp your eyes and ears shut to maintain a delusion....
Face it. They are communist fronts. Sorry if that hurts your feelings or that you don't want to hear the truth and want to talk about something else now.
Sorry if you don't want to know that anyone who attends these rallies are dupes of a communist organization.
Ask yourself this. Why is it acceptable to attend a march put together by communists, but not one by nazis? Even though both are equally heinous.
A communist front and the protesters are being duped? What are you claiming, we've been subjected to subliminal messages or something? Goodness, you are in a rut.
Let's address that last fallacy first, 'the Communist Party is as bad as the Nazi Party in the US'. If you just want to go by history of atrocities by past leaders then you better add every political ideology and the Christian religion to your list (assuming you already have Muslims on it).
The Nazi Party is racist. Hardly equivalent to Socialist Workers or Communist Party. Neither did the actions of Stalin or Mao or other past leaders embody the Communist ideology in any totalitarian actions they added. Just as dictators can still be capitalists, democracies can, in theory have communist economies.
Hitler, OTOH, made racial superiority part of his Nazi ideology. There is an actual tie there between Nazi ideology and racism.
Communism is an economic system. Capitalism and socialism are economic systems. While the line might blur in how the political system has to adjust to either economic system, you are making the common error of equating the economic system with totalitarianism. Capitalism goes quite well with fascism as I understand it.
One reason why this country's leaders built up such fear and expressed hatred toward communist regimes is because they had closed markets to corporate investors and because they threatened to nationalize investments those corporations had already made, often without compensation in the countries which changed to communist economic systems. The corporate influence on our government runs deep.
In order to more easily attack threats to corporate interests, it helps to demonize the thing you want to attack in the eyes of the general population. So naturally this country taught the population that communists were evil. In fact, in the fifties, when they added "under God" to the pledge of allegiance, there was a big campaign to equate atheism with communism.
You can be a democracy and non-secular and have a communist economic system. But that isn't what people in the fifties were raised on. They were raised on equating totalitarian governments and forced atheism with communism. That was just how the revolutionaries happened to make such radical changes and maintain power in their respective countries.
Iraq has a capitalist economy, AFAIK, and Saddam certainly had totalitarian control.
I think the economic system of communism has failed miserably. That led to Russia's downfall IMO rather than anything the US did except maybe make it harder for Russia to prosper. We made them spend a lot of money on defense. But it has cost us as well.
Capitalism has demonstrated itself to be the superior system. But without regulations, it also will drift further and further away from an ideal system. Monopolies and concentrations of wealth and power without the brakes applied by regulations is what we are seeing more and more of here today. I don't want to give up capitalism, but if the people don't take back some of the power to hold the government accountable, it won't be a good outcome.
What you call being duped, I call joining forces with all the citizens we can and taking all the actions available to move this country back in the right direction. It happened in the 60-70s with Nixon and Vietnam. It's happening again today with Bush and Iraq. Lots of similarities and many differences as well. Those in power have a lot more control over information today.
But there is a turning tide recognizable in the media so all hope is not lost.
While you claim to be against Bush (I think you implied that anyway), it seems to me you have let some big misconceptions prevent you from taking one more action to change what is happening here today. Dave may feel the effort to join WCW's march was not effective enough to spend that time. I have no issue with such an assessment. I do hope he spends some time doing something else.
I know from past experience people marching in large numbers get noticed and have influence. It has also been my experience that the more people see other people coming out, the more willing they are to come out the next time. So for me the fact the group hadn't yet been effective wasn't a reason not to join in the march. I will go to the next one and the next.
The Socialist Workers Party used to bring their own causes and leech off our marches to have the US quit intervening in El Salvador. It's only fitting they pay us back by providing the march for us to join them to stop Bush. And this time there wasn't a single "Free the Gang of Four" sign to be seen. 
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 14:07:39 [Permalink]
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Luke wrote: quote:
I will bet you a year's supply of donuts that the praises of Cuba and North Korea will be sung at this rally.
I find it very insulting to Cuba to even put them in the same sentence and context in this way. Cuba is actually communist, and has plenty of good things to brag about, even if there are also many very bad aspects of the Castro government. North Korea has absolutely nothing redemable about it and the idea that it is a communist nation is a joke. It is a vicious 1984-style dictatorship. Anybody who sings the praises of NK loses all credibility with informed people. I am unfamiliar with the communist movement - do they actually sing the praises of NK?
quote:
You want to delude yourself that the anti-war movement is not being hijacked by Communists, go right ahead.
I can't agree with this statement. Lately my hubby has been getting me more involved with the anti-war movement, particularly through the Friends Service Committee. We went to a candlelight vigil and march less than 2 weeks ago. There was absolutely nothing communistic or socialistic in the rhetoric. It is was purely a criticism of war policies and mourning for the dead US military and Iraqi citizens. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 14:25:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
You can be much more effective by actively participating in the campaigns of candidates you support. Even if it means just stuffing envelopes for them. Making phone calls to get out the vote.
Been doing that
quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
You can be more effective by keeping the loonies out of the movement. Shun them. Don't support their rallies.
So far you have been screaming about the loonies and I have been listing the organizers and participants.
quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
You can be more effective by writing reasoned position papers and presenting them before the legislature.
This legislature is dominated by corrupt rubber stampers. Writing position papers is not going to be effective. I have, however written many such papers to news media editors.
And I spend a lot of time responding to people such as yourself in these forums and an occasional blog. Read all my entries in this blog and you will see what reasoned position papers one can write in a blog. I post under skeptigirl.
quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
I did all of these things when I was still a teenager. I know what works and what doesn't.
Not sure you have convinced me you know that. You have failed to look past a preconceived idea here to validate whether or not it is correct. You ignored the speaker's list. You ignored my report there was no significant presence of any promotion of communist issues.
As far as the flag amendment, I think a little attention to the fact that flag burning in the US is so rare we hardly need a Constitutional amendment and the millions of dollars it would cost to deal with it; and, there is an issue with all the problems that would be created 1, because the current way of disposing of a worn flag is to burn it, and 2, flags are on all sorts of stuff so enforcing such a ban would be a nightmare. When you claim there was a close vote that is misleading. Such an amendment would never get a majority of states signing on. People would quickly recognize the basic points I made and not be so easily led onto the band wagon of some politicians trying to distract them with patriotism. They can be distracted about a flag burning amendment now because there is no opposition. That would change were the thing to start looking for ratification.
As for a Che Guevara tee shirt, not very many people would even recognize it. There may be a bit of anti-Castro sympathy around but even that is fading as people wonder why we punish the Cuban people with economic sanctions after all these years. It hasn't driven Fidel out yet, and it certainly isn't likely to in the future.
Today's demon is Islamic Fanatics. China is one of our biggest trading partners and Russia wants to be. You don't hear anything at all about dominoes these days. I think it's a given that those using the communist economic system prefer to change to capitalism. The poor being left behind in China and Russia may not feel that way, especially in Russia where one hears more about the people who can no longer rely on the government check. But as long as the powerful remain powerful, capitalism will flourish. And I would wager, the powerful in Russia and China are unlikely to be threatened by a population wanting to bring back the past. That would be the old and they would be dying out. Rather the leaders in those two countries are more likely to face problems from those with increasing affluence. And the affluent are unlikely to want to see a communist revolution.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 14:31:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
...this country is in sore need of more leftists. We're so far to the right today that our left is what the right was 30 years ago....
No way. Though many have commented Nixon was too "pink" to be elected by the right wing today. I wouldn't know, he didn't seem that way at the time. But I was a lot younger and didn't know as much as I know today so might not have noticed. I hated Nixon's ideology of ignoring the poor in every country we wanted to use the resources from. Bush carries on that tradition at its worst. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 10/06/2006 14:32:31 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 14:34:13 [Permalink]
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Kil wrote: quote:
You know, many of us were much more open to consider communism as a reasonable way to go back in the 60's, and it still didn't happen. Why on earth you would think that communist recruitment would work now is simply baffling to me. I was a member of the Students for a Democratic Society, the SDS, a very left leaning organization. And when someone tried to push “the little red book” into my hands I laughed out loud. Today, it would be even sillier…
Boy is this true! I'm 28 years old, I proudly call myself a liberal, feminist, declare from rooftops that we need universal healthcare, yadda yadda, but communism is a joke. I have one friend who is a communist and he's an overintellectualized, border-line-Asberger-syndrome recluse who no one takes seriously. I've been an activist for 10 years involved with all sorts of liberalism, and communists are simply not taken seriously by the Left as a whole.
Blaming the ineptitude of the Left as a whole on the extremists is meaningless. There are plenty of discredable extremists on the Right, and yet the Right has been extremely successful. Luke, you sound like you are just looking for a scapegoat for the failures of the Democratic party. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 14:42:52 [Permalink]
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Well the right has been cheating a bit to gain those successes, Marf. And I don't mean vote fraud though that is an issue too.
It's hard to compete with total money whoring with the lobbyists, deceiving (maybe I should say duping) the believers with distractions like abortion and gay marriage, out right propaganda lies like the Swift Boat attack, taking advantage of the corporate control of the media by deregulating, allowing more and more monopolies then having that same media give you an unfair advantage in broadcasting.
Yes, the left has made plenty of errors. Even today they have a poorly articulated alternative to Bush's Iraq no-plan plan. But the cheating makes it darn hard to fight a fair fight. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 15:24:56 [Permalink]
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| So, Luke, you voted for both Bushes and Reagan? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2006 : 05:52:25 [Permalink]
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When I protested against the Iraq war, I stood beside people who thought Bush should have bribed the UNSC like his daddy did. I didn't stand next to people I agreed with on every issue and I won't tomorrow. That's what coalitions are.
It was effective to the point that we don't have a draft and the U.S. has not overrun the rest of the world.
What is effective is doing something, rather than drinking your beer and calling people assholes and idiots and loonies. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/07/2006 06:05:48 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2006 : 06:50:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
When I protested against the Iraq war, I stood beside people who thought Bush should have bribed the UNSC like his daddy did. I didn't stand next to people I agreed with on every issue and I won't tomorrow. That's what coalitions are.
It was effective to the point that we don't have a draft and the U.S. has not overrun the rest of the world.
What is effective is doing something, rather than drinking your beer and calling people assholes and idiots and loonies.
I couldn't agree more. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2006 : 09:50:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Luke wrote: quote:
I will bet you a year's supply of donuts that the praises of Cuba and North Korea will be sung at this rally.
I find it very insulting to Cuba to even put them in the same sentence and context in this way. Cuba is actually communist, and has plenty of good things to brag about, even if there are also many very bad aspects of the Castro government. North Korea has absolutely nothing redemable about it and the idea that it is a communist nation is a joke. It is a vicious 1984-style dictatorship. Anybody who sings the praises of NK loses all credibility with informed people. I am unfamiliar with the communist movement - do they actually sing the praises of NK?
A simple tour of ANSWER's web site and the International Action Center (parent of ANSWER), will show you that they do indeed sing the praises of North Korea.
That's what I keep telling you guys. Look. For. Yourself.
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2006 : 09:53:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
They want Bush and the Republicans out, to be replaced by...what?
What does it matter? The WCW doesn't control the elections, nor do they have power to change the Constitution without help. Their short-term goal is the same as mine, and I can easily see that their long-term goals are not likely to be accomplished in my lifetime (given their history of ineffectiveness).
The idea that this radical minority - a minority I'd never even heard of until this thread (that's how ineffective they are) - represents such a serious threat to democracy as we know it seems to me to be giving them power. You think people here are empowering them through laziness, but you're actively giving them status simply by being so terrified of them.
I'm not terrified of them in the slightest. All I did was point out who they are, and was met by denial, which calls for evidence, which I have provided.
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2006 : 09:55:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
You can be much more effective by actively participating in the campaigns of candidates you support. Even if it means just stuffing envelopes for them. Making phone calls to get out the vote.
Been doing that
quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
You can be more effective by keeping the loonies out of the movement. Shun them. Don't support their rallies.
So far you have been screaming about the loonies and I have been listing the organizers and participants.
Like I said. There is no end of useful idiots to offer the loons legitimacy. By signing on with them, that is exactly what you are doing.
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2006 : 10:00:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
So, Luke, you voted for both Bushes and Reagan?
Yes I did.
And Bob Dole.
In 2004, I gave serious consideration to voting for Kerry. That election for me was a "lesser of two evils" choice.
I am not happy with Bush's wild spending, the creation of the Department of Homeland Security, the PATRIOT Act, some acts which for purposes of discussion fall under the category of "torture", the flag burning amendment, and many other things. But despite all that, Kerry still came out looking even worse.
And the PATRIOT act passed 99-1 in the Senate. So the Dems were/are just as much on board with it as the Republicans.
If the Dems ever come up with an actual plan it would help them a lot. But they don't even say what their plan is.
If I like whatever plan they come up with better than the current plan, I will vote for them.
The one Dem I voted for was Lieberman in his first campaign for the Senate. We conservatives were called upon by Bill Buckley to vote for him to unseat the incumbent Republican Lowell Weicker. Weicker was a jackass and a liberal.
No sooner did the voters of Connecticut vote out Weicker than they turned around and voted him in as Governor. And one of his first acts was to introduce a state income tax.
Idiots.
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/07/2006 10:02:21 |
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