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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/07/2006 : 10:02:06 [Permalink]
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| You voted for Reagan, both Bushes and can sit back and call other people loonies and fools. Cool. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular
USA
529 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2006 : 13:11:05 [Permalink]
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YO: Luke T. Wow! You considered voting for Kerry, huh?
Let me congratulate you for ALMOST doing the right thing for the country and, likely, yourself, unless you have lots of assets that need protecting by the GOP (which is the only thing that party does); or if you feel superior to other ethnicities and people who have less material goods, education and intelligence than you.
If those "qualities" are part of your make up, then you get a pass in America.
If you DON'T have those traits and DIDN'T vote for Kerry, the chances of your being pretty fucked-up are pretty good.
In that case, I offer my condolences.
OY! |
"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith
If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan
The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me
"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty
"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde
"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus
"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus
"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2006 : 13:46:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
So, Luke, you voted for both Bushes and Reagan?
Yes I did.
And Bob Dole.
In 2004, I gave serious consideration to voting for Kerry. That election for me was a "lesser of two evils" choice.
I am not happy with Bush's wild spending, the creation of the Department of Homeland Security, the PATRIOT Act, some acts which for purposes of discussion fall under the category of "torture", the flag burning amendment, and many other things. But despite all that, Kerry still came out looking even worse.
And the PATRIOT act passed 99-1 in the Senate. So the Dems were/are just as much on board with it as the Republicans.
If the Dems ever come up with an actual plan it would help them a lot. But they don't even say what their plan is.
If I like whatever plan they come up with better than the current plan, I will vote for them.
The one Dem I voted for was Lieberman in his first campaign for the Senate. We conservatives were called upon by Bill Buckley to vote for him to unseat the incumbent Republican Lowell Weicker. Weicker was a jackass and a liberal.
No sooner did the voters of Connecticut vote out Weicker than they turned around and voted him in as Governor. And one of his first acts was to introduce a state income tax.
Idiots.
I personally think Bush Jr is the worst president ever.
But I also think that as bad as he is, no matter how much I disagree with his policies, he is not a fascist, nor is he leading the USA into Fascism. His administration (not "regime")is not like McCarthyism, and our defining freedoms will survive relatively intact until someone else is voted in come 2008.
I also believe that people with different political views can disagree, discuss those disagreements, and still respect one another.
Luke, you're a brave man for volunteering to be the voice of dissent on this seemingly one-sided forum. :) |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2006 : 13:53:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I think the economic system of communism has failed miserably. That led to Russia's downfall IMO rather than anything the US did except maybe make it harder for Russia to prosper. We made them spend a lot of money on defense. But it has cost us as well.
The collapse of the Soviet economy wasn't really because of any inherent flaw of the communistic system. It was dictatorship, nepotism, rigid thinking, and pride. In an attempt to "prove" communism superior, the leaders set unreachable goals for their system that eventually stressed the economy beyond breaking point. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2006 : 03:02:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
I also believe that people with different political views can disagree, discuss those disagreements, and still respect one another.
Luke, you're a brave man for volunteering to be the voice of dissent on this seemingly one-sided forum. :)
Hardly a one-sided forum, but when someone follows right-wing extremists and then call others fools and loonies, I wonder about them. I still respect them and am willing to discuss disagreements. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Master Yoda
Skeptic Friend
59 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2006 : 06:55:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
quote:
I also believe that people with different political views can disagree, discuss those disagreements, and still respect one another.
Luke, you're a brave man for volunteering to be the voice of dissent on this seemingly one-sided forum. :)
Hardly a one-sided forum, but when someone follows right-wing extremists and then call others fools and loonies, I wonder about them. I still respect them and am willing to discuss disagreements.
Not one-sided? Ten against one, and no one with the sense to dig deeper than the WCW promotional material in the mainstream press? A whole lot of anecdotal evidence passing as fact?
And name calling as above? Luke T follow right-wing extremists? Please cite your proof or retract the statement. Unless you're stating that voting for the Republican candidate for President is following a right wing extremist? Bush is a dunderhead and has some very bad socio-economic programs and no idea of what's good for this country, but a right-wing extremist, he's not. Go find the right wing nutbar sites who also want to overthrow him, and you'll get plenty of verification. Why is it that everyone in a political forum who's farther left of the speaker is always a communist, and everyone farther right is always a fascist.
Luke came visiting at the request of the opening poster, and stated his concerns. I echo his concerns. I don't care if you're left of Rosa Luxembourg or right of Idi Amin. Be honest enough and intelligent enough to research the umbrella organization you're marching with.
Get forty or four hundred thousand people out there tomorrow, marching under the aegis of any of a hundred political organizations, and I'm with you. But if George Lincoln Rockwell or the Fourth International show up, I'm waiting for the following week's demonstration if I don't support their policies.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2006 : 08:05:24 [Permalink]
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My proof of what? That Luke follows right-wingers who attack and terrorize other countries, such as Nicaruagua, Panama, Haiti, Afghanistan, Iraq, and that terror of all terrors, Grenada, just to name a few. Right-wingers that spend a great deal more than what comes in in order to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. Extremists that put a couple of million citizens in prison and don't care at all about the rights of non-citizens? Which part of the word extremist is wrong here? I think everyone here can come up with much more evidence.
Like a lot of people, the only reason Luke doesn't still support criminals like George Bush is because they don't commit their crimes with the ability to tell jokes as well as his terrorist hero, Ronal Reagan. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/08/2006 08:08:11 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2006 : 11:14:57 [Permalink]
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Master Yoda, no one doubted the factual information Luke provided. What was objected to was the relevance and assumptions. On the other hand, Luke dismissed the actual facts about who attended the WCW rallies and what messages were given by the speakers was dismissed as having less relevance than the unspoken agendas of individual members. The fact a broad spectrum of beliefs were represented at the actual events, and, that the majority of attendees and speakers were not in the communist or socialist worker's parties and did not espouse those beliefs was dismissed as having less relevance than the unspoken agendas of individual members.
And two things about your "anecdotal evidence":
1) A published list of speakers and their backgrounds documented the lack of a communist agenda at the rallies and an aerial shot of the march documented the actual number of marchers to counter the false claim only 150 people attended. Neither of those are anecdotal evidence.
2) Anecdotal evidence of what was observed is not the same as anecdotal evidence which is claimed to support cause and effect.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 10/08/2006 11:20:36 |
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Master Yoda
Skeptic Friend
59 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2006 : 15:54:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
My proof of what? That Luke follows right-wingers who attack and terrorize other countries, such as Nicaruagua, Panama, Haiti, Afghanistan, Iraq, and that terror of all terrors, Grenada, just to name a few. Right-wingers that spend a great deal more than what comes in in order to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. Extremists that put a couple of million citizens in prison and don't care at all about the rights of non-citizens? Which part of the word extremist is wrong here? I think everyone here can come up with much more evidence.
Like a lot of people, the only reason Luke doesn't still support criminals like George Bush is because they don't commit their crimes with the ability to tell jokes as well as his terrorist hero, Ronal Reagan.
Settled. No need to apologize, as I stated previously. If your belief is that anyone in a leadership role is a reactionary evil-doer, that is your privilege. Why aren't you mentioning Bosnia, by the way? Is the jury still out on that, or do we on the left have to blindly accept everything that Clinton did just because, uh, well.... he's not a Republican? Or because he, too, could crack us up with a pithy one-liner. The Democrats don't have such a sterling record in regards to foreign policy, either. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2006 : 15:59:59 [Permalink]
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| He he. Google Gorgo and Yugoslavia. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Master Yoda
Skeptic Friend
59 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2006 : 16:29:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Master Yoda, no one doubted the factual information Luke provided. What was objected to was the relevance and assumptions. On the other hand, Luke dismissed the actual facts about who attended the WCW rallies and what messages were given by the speakers was dismissed as having less relevance than the unspoken agendas of individual members. The fact a broad spectrum of beliefs were represented at the actual events, and, that the majority of attendees and speakers were not in the communist or socialist worker's parties and did not espouse those beliefs was dismissed as having less relevance than the unspoken agendas of individual members.
And two things about your "anecdotal evidence":
1) A published list of speakers and their backgrounds documented the lack of a communist agenda at the rallies and an aerial shot of the march documented the actual number of marchers to counter the false claim only 150 people attended. Neither of those are anecdotal evidence.
2) Anecdotal evidence of what was observed is not the same as anecdotal evidence which is claimed to support cause and effect.
Well, one gets backed into a corner and sometimes over-reacts. I don't think Luke was absolutely certain there were 150 people there, he posted an early news release. You don't seem to get (or don't care) what I'm posing here. I can recall all sorts of protest events in the last four decades where people marched under one cause. Whether it was voter's rights, Viet Nam, Roe v Wade, The Chicago 8, (I can keep naming my campaign ribbons if you like, but you get the point), etc.... Sometimes we had some uncomfortable alliances, I grant you (the Gray Nuns marching next to the Brown Panthers being one of my favorites).
Did SNCC or CORE or the West Village Peace Committee have a communist member or two? Yes. Did I care? No. Did I respect them/like them? Sometimes,... depended on the person. So, I am no shrill right-wing defender of the status quo, guys. I simply prefer that organizations are a little more "up front" about their beliefs and associations. As a supporter of much of what I believe you believe, I think it a little smarmy that the RCP are recruiting behind a false front. If they believe in their program, let them state it and see who rallies to the cause.
May I suggest, as I've suggested all along, that you start your digging from the other end. Instead of looking at WCW press kits, look up the RCP side and read everything they've got to say on WCW. If you find anything from Azakian or the leadership(although Azakian has a bit of a fuhrer complex so it's unlikely you'll find much stated by anyone else) outright denying that they actually formed WCW, let me know. I can't recall, or I'd cite it, but there is definitely a quote out there from Azakian as to why they will use the WCW to get a mainstream voice.
It's not a situation, like the ones I mentioned, where there happen to be a communist or two on the dais or on the juice and cookies committee. What WCW did this year was to make sure to put the hard-liners behind the scenes so as to put a user-friendly face on the movement. There were a number of fairly far left organizations, in fact, who would not participate on Oct. 5 for various in-house dialectical reasons, but most prominent was that they were worried that the RCP hard-liners would be out tossing molotov cocktails and espousing their global revolution platform.
In fact, that begs the question... is it a movement? There is a huge anti-Bush groundswell out there. It'd be nice to see it gain some momentum, but I think many are thinking the mid-term elections will do the job. If there's no major swing in Congress in November, I expect you'll see some major organizational efforts stepping forward. It won't likely be WCW, though. They will cannibalize themselves and stay as a splinter organization or footnote.
BTW, I'm Foolmewunz at JREF. My staff here (in Hong Kong) have called me Master Yoda for a few years, and when you had a nifty avatar available, I couldn't resist. I can't criticize the RCP for flying false colors if I do the same, so wanted to straighten that out.
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Master Yoda
Skeptic Friend
59 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2006 : 16:37:56 [Permalink]
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| P.S. I've been strolling around... So far, I like the forum, here. Kil, in particular seems to be concerned with my personal bete noire, Regression Therapy versus False Memory Syndrome. I think, like JREF, politics tends to bring out the hissy fights! |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2006 : 23:04:02 [Permalink]
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Master Yoda said:
quote:
I think, like JREF, politics tends to bring out the hissy fights!
Yeah, and talking to Gorgo about any president can be like talking to a brick wall. He is right about some things, but always takes it a step (or 3) to far.
This politics folder is generally populated by liberals, or those who are liberal by comparison to what passes for conservative today.
But sometimes its fun to have a folder to just throw down your opinion on political leaders, policies, and issues. And yeah, "hissy fights" do erupt sometimes. Probably because politics is one of those subjects where evidence and critical thinking are so often abandoned, by all sides, when they feel strongly about some issue.
It is a challenge to try and apply legit skepticism and critical thinking to politics because we are all clearly prisoners to our bias on political topics.
Oh... and welcome to the SFN
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 02:44:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Master Yoda said:
quote:
I think, like JREF, politics tends to bring out the hissy fights!
Yeah, and talking to Gorgo about any president can be like talking to a brick wall. He is right about some things, but always takes it a step (or 3) to far.
Yes, I am stubborn, unlike everyone else here. Welcome Yoda. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 06:49:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Master Yoda, no one doubted the factual information Luke provided. What was objected to was the relevance and assumptions. On the other hand, Luke dismissed the actual facts about who attended the WCW rallies and what messages were given by the speakers was dismissed as having less relevance than the unspoken agendas of individual members. The fact a broad spectrum of beliefs were represented at the actual events, and, that the majority of attendees and speakers were not in the communist or socialist worker's parties and did not espouse those beliefs was dismissed as having less relevance than the unspoken agendas of individual members.
The only point I am making in this topic is that the WCW is a front for a communist organization, and one debits from one's credibility by signing on with them.
ETA: As for the unspoken agenda, I guess you still haven't looked at their web site.
As for my voting for both Bush's, all I can say is that the more you vilify Bush, the more you demonstrate just how bad the alternative is.
If my choice is between a Bush and what the WCW wants, I'll take Bush every time.
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/09/2006 06:57:49 |
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