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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/30/2006 : 19:24:30 [Permalink]
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| Okay, can we take it that GeeMack doesn't have any interest in a rational, polite discussion? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2006 : 20:46:33 [Permalink]
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It is noted that you'd rather piss and moan than to engage in a productive discussion. Fact is, Gorgo, I have for a long time been interested in knowing if you have some kind of proposed solution to this problem you complain about every chance you get. But it seems all you've got to offer is your over simplified, idyllic suggestion that everyone else should perceive those mean old government people as criminals, too.
Problems are a dime a dozen. Working out solutions actually requires work. You've made your problems abundantly clear. Are you up to the work it takes to suggest any solutions?
Oh, and it's not just some kind of weird coincidence that so many people, even stone cold sober people, regularly perceive you as a jerk. If you'd stop being such a mouthy whiner for once, and simply explain some reasonable, doable steps that individuals, governments, nations, and/or the world might take to work towards solving your problem, you'd probably find people much more willing to actually converse with you about the issues.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 03:21:58 [Permalink]
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And wise man that you are, you spend all your time bitching about and insulting people.
Thanks for coming and shitting on another thread, GeeMack. Now, kindly go away and leave the thread for people who want to discuss the topic. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/31/2006 03:28:19 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 07:32:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
quote:
Then that would also be the answer do when the US invades other countries. Negotiations should have been attempted. To my knowledge, they never have been, yes?
Actually, what I think should have happened is that the U.S. probably should not have done their best to arrange for Iraq to attack Kuwait. Note that I said probably, as no one really knows for sure.
To summarize, when one country invades another country without just cause, negotiations should take place to try to get the aggressor to pull back. Is that the purpose of the negotiations?
Isn't this the same strategery that was tried against Hitler before WWII? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 07:59:24 [Permalink]
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To say that I'm saying that there should be some hard and fast rule that one thing "should" happen is not exactly accurate. What I think I'm saying is that under present law, the U.S. attacks on Iraq, and other countries is a violation of law.
I'm not a scholar of WWII, but I think with the start of Germany's incursions, Great Britain was happy to help Hitler as much as possible. Much of the wealthy of the world were all for him, as he ws anti-communist. Even after the war started, they were happy to see them slaughter Soviets, for sure. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 08:12:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
What I think I'm saying is that under present law, the U.S. attacks on Iraq, and other countries is a violation of law.
If this statement is true, then the real question is how do you punish a country that has the largest, most technologically advanced (in terms of conventional war) military in the world, possesses nuclear weapons (and has used them before), and drives much of the world economy?
The answer is you don't. I'm not saying this is right or wrong; I'm saying it is what it is. Unfortunately, might does make right.
The real punishment has to come with time, when said country's power begins to subside due to its errant behavior and changes in the world politic and economy. Then other countries will be able to leverage the lack of power. At the current rate, the EU and China will (sooner or later) catch up and/or surpass the US in terms of "power", and the US will be forced to play by different rules.
That or we will just nuke everyone from orbit and bring about the end of the world. That depends on who gets "elected" in the future. I believe the US is perfectly capabable of "electing" a rabid right-wing fundy (and no Bush isn't one of these). I think that we are being setup for it. The Democrats will take power, and probably win the executive in the next elections. Then, there will be a "terrorist attack", and the Democrats will be setup for failure. The voters, swayed by fear, will go back to the right....but I digress. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 08:23:09 [Permalink]
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| Well, I'm not really interested in punishing anyone. All I'm trying to do is educate myself as to what reality is. Despite whatever it is GeeMack, Dude, Humbert and one or two others are so hysterically angry at, I don't see anything wrong with that. He thinks somehow that education does not help to solve problems. It's the beginning to every solution. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 08:33:25 [Permalink]
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GeeMack wrote:quote:
Okay, so can we take it you don't really have a rational, practical solution to offer, and that you are again just complaining?
Someone repeated bringing up one of the most serious issues of our time is not "just complaining". This does have the potential to be a fruitful discussion, and this question seems more like a personal attack on Gorgo than a legit challenge.
GeeMack also wrote: quote:
Oh, and it's not just some kind of weird coincidence that so many people, even stone cold sober people, regularly perceive you as a jerk.
This is just as straight out personal attack. Yeah, Gee, Gorgo pisses a lot of people off in other discussions. He's pissed me off more than once. But just because he rubs a lot of people the wrong way doesn't automatically mean that he's wrong in this discussion. You've got a serious chip of your shoulder.
quote:
If you'd stop being such a mouthy whiner for once, and simply explain some reasonable, doable steps that individuals, governments, nations, and/or the world might take to work towards solving your problem, you'd probably find people much more willing to actually converse with you about the issues.
Last time I checked, criticism of the government wasn't invalidated by not having the perfect alternative solution. Do you disagree with Gorgo's criticisms? I certainly don't.
pleco wrote: quote:
To summarize, when one country invades another country without just cause, negotiations should take place to try to get the aggressor to pull back. Is that the purpose of the negotiations?
Isn't this the same strategery that was tried against Hitler before WWII?
To some degree, I could argue that this is a false comparison. Germany took Austria with a rigged election, and pretty much no one had a problem when they took Sudenland, or hell, even before that when they started just breaking the treaty of Versailles willy nilly. Some nations harshly criticized Germany, but others were pretty ho hum about it because they trusted that Hitler would stop after he'd united all the German-speaking peoples. Now technically one could argue that for 6 years the rest of Europe used "negotiation" to try to stop Hitler. Hell, even after he invaded Poland and they officially declared war, the violence didn't heat up for 6 more months, so I suppose we could consider that 6 more months of ineffective negotiation. You do have a point, pleco, in that there is a similarity with Iraq bulking up militarily and probably not planning on stopping with Kuwait if that had been successful. Hussein certainly did have grander ideas about Iraqi expansion, and it wouldn't have benefited the west to have an increasing amount of Mid-East oil controlled by a single power.
But all that said, there are many profound differences, and I think it is quite obvious that negotiation and non-military tactics have been sorely under practiced. The art of war is sexy and exciting. The art of negotiation is often viewed as the weak-man's excuse to not get involved. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 09:22:22 [Permalink]
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I think if the first Gulf war and the following sanctions weren't a clear violation of international law, the second was.
Clinton said that the sanctions would not end as long as Saddam Hussein was in power. It had nothing to do with anything that he did.
Bush said that they knew where the weapons were, yet the pulled the inspectors. Even if one forgets the history of western intervention into the area, this is a clear crime. Even if there were weapons, again, the only attack allowed by the U.N. Charter in that case is to stop an imminent attack. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 11:01:57 [Permalink]
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| The real problem is not with the crimes of the US but in why they are seemingly immune to repercussions and how to change that. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 11:26:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
The real problem is not with the crimes of the US but in why they are seemingly immune to repercussions and how to change that.
I understand a lot of what the U.S. does, as they know if it wasn't them doing it, it would be someone else, because it's still a might makes right international system, and the wealthiest of the world buy the power.
We in the United States have the potential to make it a better system. Instead, we are doing our best to make it worse. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 11:52:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
this question seems more like a personal attack on Gorgo than a legit challenge.
I appreciate this, and I hope I will be less inclined to have a chip on my shoulder since there is someone here that sees his chip, even if I might be partially responsible for his misperception of me. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 12:12:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I think if the first Gulf war and the following sanctions weren't a clear violation of international law, the second was.
It could be argued that GWII is the same war if Iraq violated the cease fire agreement that ended GWI.
If the sanctions caused misery in Iraq that is also an argument for a GWII.quote:
Clinton said that the sanctions would not end as long as Saddam Hussein was in power. It had nothing to do with anything that he did.
A promise or a prediction by Clinton?quote:
Bush said that they knew where the weapons were, yet the pulled the inspectors.
One reason that the inspectors were allowed into Iraq was most likely the massive US military buildup in the area. I doubt that this buildup was for the benefit of the inspectors.
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 12:28:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
It could be argued that GWII is the same war if Iraq violated the cease fire agreement that ended GWI.
If the sanctions caused misery in Iraq that is also an argument for a GWII.
The agreement left the UNSC in charge of the situation, not the U.S. The U.S. put spies in the inspection teams, and told Iraq that it didn't matter whether they obeyed the agreements or not, they would have to live with sanctions and bombings. The no-fly zones were illegal. Like everything else the U.S. does, they use the U.N. and international law when it is to their benefit, and ignore it when it isn't.
quote:
One reason that the inspectors were allowed into Iraq was most likely the massive US military buildup in the area. I doubt that this buildup was for the benefit of the inspectors.
The only reason they were allowed. Everyone who had any sense told them to cooperate at that point, and they did. That was their mistake. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 12:36:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Like everything else the U.S. does, they use the U.N. and international law when it is to their benefit, and ignore it when it isn't.
True, but also true for almost any other country as well. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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