|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/31/2006 : 12:43:59 [Permalink]
|
quote:
True, but also true for almost any other country as well.
Absolutely, but again, the citizens of the U.S. are in a unique position to actually improve the situation.
Everyone said 9/11 would change things. What did they do when thousands of people were killed. Did they vow to stop increasing poverty and violence in the world? No. They started increasing poverty and violence in the world by invading Afghanistan, Iraq and Haiti and threatening several other countries. Did they dismantle the IMF, NAFTA, NED? Did they apologize for past crimes and vow to make the world a better place? No. They took us back to the Middle Ages, talking about JEESUS and Axis of Evil. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
 |
|
|
GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 12:44:54 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox...
Someone repeated bringing up one of the most serious issues of our time is not "just complaining". This does have the potential to be a fruitful discussion, and this question seems more like a personal attack on Gorgo than a legit challenge.
I will not disagree that the issues Gorgo complains about are serious. In my previous postings in this thread (and in other previous threads) I directly asked if he was willing to propose any rational, doable solutions to those problems. But rather than make his suggestions, or acknowledge that he has none, he chose to avoid the issue and respond with his typical sarcasm.
quote:
This is just as straight out personal attack. Yeah, Gee, Gorgo pisses a lot of people off in other discussions. He's pissed me off more than once. But just because he rubs a lot of people the wrong way doesn't automatically mean that he's wrong in this discussion.
I didn't suggest he was wrong in this discussion. I suggested he actually consider practical solutions to the problems he presents and let us know what sort of solutions he's willing to offer. I understand his frustration with the current state of world politics, especially regarding the way the United States government has been dealing with it for the last several decades. But even if 300 million of us complain and criticize, it's minimally likely that the problems will solve themselves. Considering courses of action which actually have some realistic possibility of bringing about necessary changes, discussing and refining those considerations, then pursuing those courses of action, are much more likely to actually reduce the problems.
quote:
You've got a serious chip of your shoulder.
Gorgo has, in previous threads, expressed a belief that people think he's an asshole because they're drunk. That was an incorrect assumption on his part, and I just wanted to set him straight on that point. A little more awareness of the impression he creates by how he presents himself seems likely to make all his conversations more pleasant and productive.
quote:
Last time I checked, criticism of the government wasn't invalidated by not having the perfect alternative solution. Do you disagree with Gorgo's criticisms? I certainly don't.
I certainly never asked Gorgo to provide a "perfect alternative solution", and you know it. And I didn't suggest his criticism was invalid because of a lack of offering solutions. And, in fact, I don't generally disagree with his criticisms. I did ask him if he was willing to propose any doable, rational, practical solution at all. He barely touched on a suggestion, I asked him to elaborate on that, and once again he chose to avoid any kind of productive, civil reply.
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo...
We in the United States have the potential to make it a better system.
Again I'll ask, do you have any suggestions as to particular steps we might take to start doing that?
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 13:41:18 [Permalink]
|
I have made many suggestions in this thread and others, but for some reason they're not what you expect from someone of my exalted station in life. I have said that education is important. I have said that a more democratic international structure would be important. Just talking about these things is important.
So, I guess if we are to attempt civil discussion, I would do better to ask you why you think those things are ludicrous, and what you would suggest to improve the situation. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 16:10:08 [Permalink]
|
I guess I have to ask again:
What law is the US violating when it attacks another country. Please provide a specific answer, not the typical dodge you usually give when this question is put to you Gorgo.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 17:00:56 [Permalink]
|
quote:
, not the typical dodge
Yeah, I'm really stupid, but not stupid enough to continue to play your games. Please leave this thread for people who care about discussing issues politely. We know you're able to call people assholes and idiots and we're actually impressed by it. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 17:20:23 [Permalink]
|
In order to change the behavior of the US government in terms of it's international relations, one has to determine the reasons for that behavior in the first place. The reason the US invades countries, foments coups, and meddles in the democratic elections of sovereign nations, is twofold. First to pry open markets in nations that are not keen to the idea. Second, to make available the exploitation of resources. The resulting policies are done at the behest of primarily the investing class. The same class (surprise) that controls the purse strings of the two dominant political parties. We, as Americans, don't have these types of discussions when the priorities of the investing class coincide with those of the middle and working classes. Right now however, a large number of primarily working class rural and urban youth are being killed in a war where the justifications have changed so much that even the most obtuse individuals can smell the bullshit. Add to that, the fact that the major resource being exploited in the third world today is labor - the major reason the manufcturing jobs (working class) have all but disappeared and engineering and science jobs (middle class) are soon to follow. The question is, how do we change the behavior of the US government. There are no easy answers. No quick fix. The Republicans need to be voted out because elections are the only form of political accountability available now. It's Bush's folly, his party will only learn to reject his logic if they're held to account. That said, I belive that the Democrats are not the long term answer. As I suggested above, they answer to the same invesing class as the Republicans. Their policies may be slightly different, but the effects are the same. What is needed is a long term commitment to an independent party organized from the ground up. Independent of investor money. For obvious reasons, this will be very difficult and take years or decades.
Sorry for the long post. |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 18:44:54 [Permalink]
|
Not long at all. And I agree almost completely. I'm wondering seriously if the Democrats are even a short term answer.
And as to Independent parties, I'm starting to think they ought to be international. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 03:22:15 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
I guess I have to ask again:
What law is the US violating when it attacks another country. Please provide a specific answer, not the typical dodge you usually give when this question is put to you Gorgo.
Since GeeMack's idea of reacting to people the way that they seem doesn't seem to work, and in the interest of polite discussion, please allow me to make a more reasonable comeback here. You seem to me to keep asking the same question without really explaining yourself. I take what you mean to say as that there is no international law. When I bring that up, rather than explain yourself, you react in what seems to be an angry manner. What is your position here? Is there some kind of international law? Did not Nuremberg and the UN Charter at least at face value outlaw the use of aggressive attacks between nations? Please explain. Sorry for my defensive reaction. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 05:25:23 [Permalink]
|
Gorgo wrote: quote:
Yeah, I'm really stupid, but not stupid enough to continue to play your games. Please leave this thread for people who care about discussing issues politely. We know you're able to call people assholes and idiots and we're actually impressed by it.
This is totally a dodge. Why don't you just answer the question instead of responding in a way that is only likely to heighten this exchange of insults? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 05:58:50 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Gorgo wrote: quote:
Yeah, I'm really stupid, but not stupid enough to continue to play your games. Please leave this thread for people who care about discussing issues politely. We know you're able to call people assholes and idiots and we're actually impressed by it.
This is totally a dodge. Why don't you just answer the question instead of responding in a way that is only likely to heighten this exchange of insults?
Hopefully, you'll read the post that follows that one. Are you disagreeing with my position? I've answered this question from him and others many times on these forums. Do I need to again? Do you have an answer for him? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
| Edited by - Gorgo on 11/01/2006 06:42:22 |
|
|
|
GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 20:07:10 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo...
I have made many suggestions in this thread and others, but for some reason they're not what you expect from someone of my exalted station in life. I have said that education is important. I have said that a more democratic international structure would be important. Just talking about these things is important.
What sort of education are you considering? How would we implement the education and who would be the primary target of that effort? Do you mean public information campaigns directed at prospective voters, or are you talking about the addition of some kind of particular programs to school curriculums?
How do we go about creating a more democratic international structure? It seems such an effort would require a legitimate humanitarian concern on the part of the US government, admittedly a pretty far reach at this point in time. Do we elect representatives who favor such changes? Are there such people, and what would be the realistic prospect of getting a majority of them into representative positions? Should we create organizations or maybe support existing organizations which are already working to get our current representatives to initiate the necessary processes to get such a thing started? And which organizations would those be?
quote:
So, I guess if we are to attempt civil discussion, I would do better to ask you why you think those things are ludicrous, and what you would suggest to improve the situation.
I don't think the concepts are ludicrous, and I didn't say they were. I do think the suggestions are barely a step beyond saying, "How about we just make everything better." Yes, it would be nice if everything were better. Yes, it would be nice if there were some obvious recourse for us mere citizens when our government is hijacked on behalf of corporations and the wealthy. Reality, however, says we aren't going to have a majority of independent, non-Democrat/Republican representatives and administrators who will be on our side to implement changes to benefit the people of the US and the world. At least not anytime soon.
I think Greg's response above is well considered, starting with taking the necessary baby step of getting rid of the terrible administration we now have. And even if it isn't an ideal move, that means we might just have to replace Republicans with Democrats, in the near term, because we absolutely will have Democrats or Republicans in the vast majority of offices, at least the next several times around.
|
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 23:27:08 [Permalink]
|
Gorgo:
I'm asking you to cite the law that you think makes war illegal. I've asked you to do this before, and you have refused.
The UN charter does not make war illegal. You can read the entire thing for yourself, it isn't all that long.
But again:
Tell us the exact law that you think makes war illegal.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2006 : 01:52:32 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Tell us the exact law that you think makes war illegal.
I'm sorry if you have answered this before Gorgo, but I would also like to know this. |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2006 : 03:27:20 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Tell us the exact law that you think makes war illegal.
Again, I have not said that war is illegal. I asked you a question. What is your position on this? Is there no international law? You must have a position on this. Where does it come from?
I have posted articles by experts on the subject, but you seem to ignore them and ridicule my position without actually stating what your position is. I don't know why I would continue to do that kind of work just to have it ignored. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2006 : 03:31:51 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo...
I have made many suggestions in this thread and others, but for some reason they're not what you expect from someone of my exalted station in life. I have said that education is important. I have said that a more democratic international structure would be important. Just talking about these things is important.
What sort of education are you considering? How would we implement the education and who would be the primary target of that effort? Do you mean public information campaigns directed at prospective voters, or are you talking about the addition of some kind of particular programs to school curriculums?
How do we go about creating a more democratic international structure? It seems such an effort would require a legitimate humanitarian concern on the part of the US government, admittedly a pretty far reach at this point in time. Do we elect representatives who favor such changes? Are there such people, and what would be the realistic prospect of getting a majority of them into representative positions? Should we create organizations or maybe support existing organizations which are already working to get our current representatives to initiate the necessary processes to get such a thing started? And which organizations would those be?
quote:
So, I guess if we are to attempt civil discussion, I would do better to ask you why you think those things are ludicrous, and what you would suggest to improve the situation.
I don't think the concepts are ludicrous, and I didn't say they were. I do think the suggestions are barely a step beyond saying, "How about we just make everything better." Yes, it would be nice if everything were better. Yes, it would be nice if there were some obvious recourse for us mere citizens when our government is hijacked on behalf of corporations and the wealthy. Reality, however, says we aren't going to have a majority of independent, non-Democrat/Republican representatives and administrators who will be on our side to implement changes to benefit the people of the US and the world. At least not anytime soon.
I think Greg's response above is well considered, starting with taking the necessary baby step of getting rid of the terrible administration we now have. And even if it isn't an ideal move, that means we might just have to replace Republicans with Democrats, in the near term, because we absolutely will have Democrats or Republicans in the vast majority of offices, at least the next several times around.
I don't know the answer to your questions, again, you seem to give me a great deal more power than I have. I was mainly talking about educating myself, and talking with others about problems and yes, about solutions. Yes, eventually learning how to teach people, including myself, how to think better. If electing Democrats is the only solution you have, then that is probably as reasonable as any. I'm just not so sure that it makes any difference at all. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
| Edited by - Gorgo on 11/02/2006 03:59:58 |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
