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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 04/01/2002 : 10:00:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Sunday you'll get a better view (assuming the weather holds).
The weather held alright--it stayed as foggy as it's been for the last week. Drove over the Golden Gate last night and couldn't see the towers from the center lane as I went under them.
How long do we figure this comet will remain visible?
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2002 : 16:26:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
"...it doesn't make any sense to me that there was nothing to cause it. If it compressed or whatever, then there had to be something to make it do that. It's not like the universe is a living thing itself, so that it just thought that one "day" it would compress to make what we have now.
~Megan~
1. It only had to happen once.
2. It may not have been "compressed" but rather infinitely small. (There's a difference.)
3. There's also a difference between "something" coming from "nothing" and "absolutely everything" coming from "absolutely nothing."
4. Maybe the Universe is becoming a "living thing".
(Sorry for the cryptic answers.) ;-)
Chip
"Speaking without thinking like shooting without aiming." - Charlie Chan |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2002 : 17:31:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
All I'm saying is that I think there had to be something to cause it.
Hi again, Megan,
Okay, suppose you're right, and there was something that caused the Big Bang.
Now... what caused *that*?
You really only have two options. Either the universe has existed forever (in one form or another), or it started at some point.
If it existed forever, what the Big Bang seems to be telling us is that whatever there was before that, we can't ever know anything about it.
If it started at some point, then pretty much by definition, *something* came from *nothing*. Or if there was no universe but something else (aka God), then you can apply the same arguments to *it*.
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2002 : 17:54:44 [Permalink]
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Megan, think of the Big Bang like this:
It's a way of explaining things back to a certain point until we have the technology to see beyond that point. Given how far back this point that we're talking about is, I have a feeling that it's gonna be awhile before we have anything close to that sort of tech.
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your common sense." -Buddha |
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Hook
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2002 : 18:15:49 [Permalink]
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I also wonder if causation is one of those things that looks pretty straight forward locally but turns out to be really weird at fast speeds, very small sizes, etc.
Of course, keep in mind I'm a psychologist not a physicist. :-D
(P-)>
"I don't care whether my neighbor believes in zero gods or 20 gods, I care whether my neighbor believes in democracy."
--Bill Moyers |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2002 : 10:36:39 [Permalink]
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[Insert long protracted scream here.]
When am I gonna learn that by responding to HB's I invite idiocy? The Babel article referred to on BA's site was just too tempting to pass up. I thought that maybe, just maybe, I could get a reasoned response to an e-mail. What I got was more of the same Sibrel garbage about killings to silence astronauts.
AAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cthulu/Asmodeus, when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils. |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2002 : 16:17:42 [Permalink]
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Megan> Chippewa has a point you see. We don't know what happened at the exact instant of the Big Bang. It doesn't even make sense to speak of before. Things that are infinitely small or have an infinite high temperature are in a way beyond physics. Infinities in physics are a big “no no”, that we have to avoid, as nothing is infinite IN the Universe.
I usually think of it in the following way: Big Bang was not just one event, it was something that was underway in an odd sense of forever. Since time started with the big bang now and forever were equal before the Universe started. That means you have another kind of “forever” to wait for the most unexpected the most impossible. But if your wait forever, even the most improbable of events will occur.
I don't think we'll ever be able to see “beyond” the Big Bang, as we're practically inside it. It's just got a lot bigger and cooler within the past billions of years, but there is no outside or beyond our Universe. Blows the mind and I usually end up lying like Calvin after his dad showed him the record trick :)
.
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2002 : 12:18:49 [Permalink]
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I understand, but it doesnt make any sense to me that there was nothing to cause it. If it compressed or whatever, then there had to be something to make it do that. It's not like the universe is a living thing itself, so that it just thought that one "day" it would compress to make what we have now.
All I'm saying is that I think there had to be something to cause it.
Megan, It is always tempting to try to explain the unknown with the information you have at hand. It usually works, and is easier than getting off your butt and doing research along new lines. But before you do that you have to be sure that you actually have the information.
One of my favorite examples is Crop Circles from Outer Space. One morning in England a farmer found that the wheat in one of his fields had been pressed down in a geometric pattern. He had no idea of how it got there.
The information he possessed: 1) Being geometric it wasn't a natural phenomenon but had to be artificial. 2) For the past 3500 years there had been a tradition of "living sculpture" artists in the British Isles making patterns in crops, trees and earth-works.
Armed with only these two facts the logical conclusion would have been that one of these artists created it without asking his permission.
His conclusion: Beings from another planet flew hundreds of light years in a flying saucer and made it with positronic rays.
He based his conclusion completely on "facts" that he didn't have.
When you get to the Big Bang. No one is sure why it happened. Speculations are put forward based on facts that we posses. It is becoming clear that we need many more facts before we can really understand how it worked.
Xians, like the Crop Circle Farmer, reach their conclusion without even considering what we actually do know. They say that since time and space started at the Big Bang the cause must "transcend" time and space; i.e.: is supernatural. Jesus, in their stories, transcends time and space therefore Jesus created the Big Bang. The Big Bang therefore proves that there is a god!
But science doesn't work like that. You have to show that there are little green men at all before you can blame crop circles on them. Before you can say who made the Big Bang you have to prove that there even is a "who". Till then we will look for the more logical "what."
Lightening comes to mind. In the early 1700's observational research suggested that is was caused by dust explosions, similar to those that happened in grain silos. But no experiments were thought of, so no one could say for sure.
The church said that lightening was god's wrath. They took exactly the same the same stance that their "pagan" predecessors did. "Thunder Bolts" from the sky were god's "bolts" (this type of "bolt" is a cross bow arrow).
Ben Franklin noticed that during a lightening storm the hairs on the back of his hand stood up, exactly as they had during his experiments with static electricity. He devised one of the more famous science experiments that proved lightening was due to free electrons and friction and weren't "supernatural" at all.
He pushed science beyond where it stood.
We'll need another Franklin to push us to the answer to what caused the Big Bang from where we stand now. But you can already dismiss unfounded claims of the "supernatural."
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 20:17:50 [Permalink]
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Megan:
Your question, "What caused the Big Bang," is a valid one. The truth is, we don't as yet, know. The process, that set our universe into being, or "the trigger," is still beyond our detection, and may remain so, well, forever. However, when using a term like 'before,' which is a reference to time, remember that 'time' is a "dimension" of our universe. Therefore, there can not be a "before" of the Big Bang theory, because there was no time, till it began. If that concept seems confusing, well, just know, that we're in good company. And just because there are no known answers to your questions, doesn't mean that they are 'bad' questions. Actually, quite the opposite is true.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2002 : 18:12:56 [Permalink]
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Hey, has anyone been able to log in to BABB today? It seems that ever since my post last night, no one has posted. And now I can't even get to BA.com.
________________________
Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...
*whine* |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 08:38:29 [Permalink]
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Nope. No problems. I haven't tried to post anything though.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Megan
Skeptic Friend
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2002 : 18:45:07 [Permalink]
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Hey guys! Havent written in a while probably cause I've been gone so much. Anyway, just wanted to say to BA: Great Book!! I loved it!! And the part I liked the most about it is that even I could understand what you were saying.
Oh and sorry Lisa for it taking me so long to read it (had other reading assignments[ugh]).
And another thing: Happy belated B-day 
~Megan~
BTW, I'm a 15 year old that never stops asking questions(=P). |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 08:15:22 [Permalink]
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Lisa had a birthday and didn't tell us?
Lisa?
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 09:02:15 [Permalink]
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Yep. Turned 43 on 21 Apr. It was kind of neat. For the first time in about 3 years, Ed and I were in the same country for my birthday. Also, we didn't have a blizzard this year, so we had power! Megan's step-mom was able to make a cake.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Megan
Skeptic Friend
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 09:13:35 [Permalink]
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Yeah, and she just had to make the only kind of cake that I dont like Oh well, it's Lisa's cake so it's all good
~Megan~
BTW, I'm a 15 year old that never stops asking questions(=P). |
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