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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 12/05/2006 : 18:10:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Pachomius
Peace, harmony, and happiness for Buddhists?
About peace, harmony, and happiness for Buddhists, see also the geographical patches on earth which are traditionally Buddhistic for thousand of years; see any peace, harmony, and happiness with the peoples there. How about Sri Lanka (Ceylon) where the Pali Canon was confected?
I am still in the exposition phase of my thesis.
Pachomius
What is the sound of one hand dripping? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2006 : 18:12:03 [Permalink]
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Is he serious? Has he totally missed the point? Pachomius this is a forum not a graduate course. We don't need a disertation. How about addressing the points of the other members. How about showing us some sources, more than one is plural. Some data, some evidence.
Ok. Buddhist (traditionally) countries are not necessarily peaceful, so...? Christianity teaches to love your neighbor and hate homosexuals. To turn the other cheek and to take heaven by force. To heal the town of the sick and lame, unless they do not convert then slay them. There is good and bad in Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism. What is your point? |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2006 : 19:50:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
What is the sound of one hand dripping?
What is the color of boredom?
What is the smell of obsession? |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2006 : 20:04:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Pachomius
Peace, harmony, and happiness for Buddhists?
About peace, harmony, and happiness for Buddhists, see also the geographical patches on earth which are traditionally Buddhistic for thousand of years; see any peace, harmony, and happiness with the peoples there. How about Sri Lanka (Ceylon) where the Pali Canon was confected?
Have any of them been governed by a strictly Buddhist government? And I don't mean a government run by people who are all Buddhists, I mean a government based upon Buddhist principles. Has that happened? Ever?quote:
I am still in the exposition phase of my thesis.
Pointing out the "patches on earth which are traditionally Buddhistic for thousand of years" does nothing to confer your meaning or intent.
When are you going to be skeptical of Buddhism? Will you... no... Can you answer that one question? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 06:15:47 [Permalink]
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Um, Buddhism..... My brother, also an atheist, was married in a Buddhist ceremony. That was back in the '60s, and it's held up pretty well. Which, of course, proves nothing beyond that atheists too, like esoteric ceremony.
I've always looked at Buddhism as the poetry of the religions -- Joyce Kilmer as opposed to L. Ron Hubbard; Robert Burns to Adolph Hitler. True, the tenants of it are often ignored and/or mistranslated to meet the needs of certain sub-humans. But this sets it not at all apart from every other faith.
So why rag on the Fat Guy? He is certainly not to blame for the misdeeds done by scum acting for their own purposes and using his name.
But to answer the question at hand: no, skepticism is not compatible with Buddhism simply because, like all other religions, it makes claims that cannot be supported by anything but faith and spirituality.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Pachomius
BANNED
62 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 17:32:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
But to answer the question at hand: no, skepticism is not compatible with Buddhism simply because, like all other religions, it makes claims that cannot be supported by anything but faith and spirituality.
Thanks, filthy, for your enlightenment about the purpose of this thread, namely, to ask people here who are rational skeptics whether they find Buddhism compatible or incompatible with skepticism.
Here is another input for people here to judge for themselves the compatibility or incompatibility between Buddhism and rationalism, my observation about the historical sources for Gautama and his teachings, contribution to what I have come upon delightedly earlier this morning of this website called Webguru - The Collective Wisdom of the Planet.quote:
There is a need to also bring up the historical sources for the existence of Gautama, founder of Buddhism, and likewise for the historical sources of the documentary records for the doctrines of Buddhism.
By historical sources I refer to earliest extant records in any materials like parchments or in stones or in woods or in metals which carry any texts attesting to the existence of Gautama and the existence of the doctrines of Buddhism.
Most important is the dating of these historical sources. What I know is that websites on Buddhism are famous for not bringing up this question of historical sources. And I for one seem to have the impression that the earliest records of what we might call historical sources for our knowledge of Gautama and his doctrines by which he taught his system of philosophy and religion for mankind date to the 6th century of common era.
That is my impression from my search in the web for dating of historical sources for Gautama's existence and his teachings -- I don't claim to be infallible.
Pachomius
Retrieved from "http://webguru.com/wiki/Talk:Buddhism"
About giving references in the way of cites to the web for my words, my thoughts are stock knowledge of most people who do study Buddhism with an academically critical eye. However, if you want to know the cite for my statement that Einstein never said anything of endorsement in favor of Buddhism, please look up Wikiquotes.
I have been giving commentaries on E-Sangha Buddhism Portal because it represents the best or the worst in Buddhism, the teachings and the disciplines.
So, everyone, just judge for yourself as you read my observations on Buddhism whether it is compatible or incompatible with skepticism; then try to find out why many Westerners otherwise critical of religions treat Buddhism with kids' gloves.
Do you really need anything from Buddhism for your adjustment in life which you cannot find more readily available in the stockroom of rational skepticism to find meaning in life and attain also peace, harmony, and happiness with your existence on this planet earth, that you have to resort to Buddhism?
I am a rational skeptic and engaged in the hobby of critique and criticism as an engrossing and enjoyable and rewarding activity in terms of knowledge of facts, evidence, and logic, by an objective probing of Buddhism and everything Buddhist from Gautama to present heroes of Buddhism from the Far East teaching Westerners how to attain peace, harmony, and happiness in life, when these same teachers should be back home teaching their own fellow countrymen and fellow Buddhists, like in Myanmar, Kampuchea, Tibet, Sri Lanka, Laos, Vietnam, Thailand.
Have a good day.
Pachomius
[Edited to fix quoting - Dave W.] |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 18:21:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Pachomius...
So, everyone, just judge for yourself as you read my observations on Buddhism whether it is compatible or incompatible with skepticism; then try to find out why many Westerners otherwise critical of religions treat Buddhism with kids' gloves.
Well it looks like you plan to simply post observations without actually joining in the discussion. Come on, Pachomius, that's not in the spirit of how it works here at SFN. Please re-read the mission statement and pay special attention to the part where it says, "[W]e invite active participation by our members..." Active participation doesn't mean you write your thesis in this thread and ask us to judge it or consider it. That's one way communication. Active participation means you get involved in the discussion, answer questions that others ask you, work to be a part of an actual conversation.
Since your opening post you've been suggesting that people who are generally critical of religion tend to treat Buddhism with kid gloves. You've made the claim, and you've repeated it. Now how about you provide some evidence to back it up? Participate, Pachomius. Support your assertion. Discuss.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 18:27:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Pachomius
Thanks, filthy, for your enlightenment about the purpose of this thread, namely, to ask people here who are rational skeptics whether they find Buddhism compatible or incompatible with skepticism.
You seemed to ignore the previous answers. I guess filthy is special.quote:
About giving references in the way of cites to the web for my words, my thoughts are stock knowledge of most people who do study Buddhism with an academically critical eye.
And that somehow justifies your refusal to offer citations for many of your alleged "facts?"quote:
However, if you want to know the cite for my statement that Einstein never said anything of endorsement in favor of Buddhism, please look up Wikiquotes.
It's called Wikiquote (singular). Did someone ask specifically about a cite for the Einstein bit, anyway? Don't think so.quote:
I have been giving commentaries on E-Sangha Buddhism Portal because it represents the best or the worst in Buddhism, the teachings and the disciplines.
"The best or the worst?" How is that possible? There are obviously plenty of places that present a much, much worse picture of Buddhism, simply by focusing on nothing but the mystical. And there are better references, also. E-Sangha is neither. Besides, you have failed to criticize any of the core teachings of Buddhism.quote:
So, everyone, just judge for yourself as you read my observations on Buddhism whether it is compatible or incompatible with skepticism; then try to find out why many Westerners otherwise critical of religions treat Buddhism with kids' gloves.
It's "kid gloves," not "kid's gloves." (Man, that drives me up a wall, moreso than even "intense or purposes.") And the answer is still "no," despite your insistence that it is "yes."quote:
I am a rational skeptic and engaged in the hobby of critique and criticism as an engrossing and enjoyable and rewarding activity in terms of knowledge of facts, evidence, and logic, by an objective probing of Buddhism and everything Buddhist...
Except for the core doctrine, of course. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 19:12:00 [Permalink]
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"Kid gloves....?" I don't know of any skeptic that treats any religion in that manner. I personally, treat Buddhism with the same inattention and neglect that I give all faiths. Except when some of their adherents get in my face, as evangeliticals are wont to do. Trying to turn the country into a theocratcy is really getting in my face.
I cannot recall a Buddhist ever trying to even do so much as 'witness' at me, though. Perhaps that helps explain why they are not taken to task more often. They simply haven't earned the attention.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 19:43:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
(Man, that drives me up a wall, moreso than even "intense or purposes.")
Yeah, it's for all intensive purposes. 
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 19:46:55 [Permalink]
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| Where is the fire? Seriously, Pachomius what is your goal? Skepticism does not allow for any beliefs without evidence. That is a given. Why should anyone care about Buddism or people who practice Buddhism or even people who pick and choose from the Buddhist buffet and create there own religion like people do with all the other faiths. The bottom line is faith is not compatible with skepticism. No one has disagreed yet. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
| Edited by - Neurosis on 12/06/2006 19:47:49 |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2006 : 05:33:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I cannot recall a Buddhist ever trying to even do so much as 'witness' at me, though. Perhaps that helps explain why they are not taken to task more often. They simply haven't earned the attention.
That is because contrary to the likes of Islam and Christianity, Buddhist doctrine says nothing about converting others (that I know of, anyway - my source is Buddhist friends of mine). In fact, it says one should find the Path by one's self.
Real Buddhism is very tolerant and not concerned with labels like 'Christian', 'Moslem', 'Hindu' or 'Buddhist'; that is why there have never been any wars fought in the name of Buddhism. That is why Buddhists do not preach and try to convert, only explain if an explanation is sought. - from BuddhaNet. Warning: there is a lot of silliness and woo woo there, but there is also the occasional interesting thing. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2006 : 09:51:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
No doubt as a philosophy it has its share of problems. You gotta take the good and remove the bad. Like you said HH, its all about sacrificing and paying the cost of happiness in order to get the most joy for the work. If Buddhism works for creating happiness in someone its fine by me, so long as he does not try and base his decisions purely on what makes him happy or try and convert me.
It's almost like engineering your personality to channel where or how you find happiness from shallow, destructive, and/or difficult to fulfill sources to those more productive, soothing and/or easier to maintain...
It's still social engineering, but starting from within the individual rather than trying to enforce it from the outside. By outside, I'm thinking of fire and brimstone as punishment for being sinful kind; that's social engineering of the brutish, fear-based kind. Very different methods, but a similar overall goal, I'd think. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 12/07/2006 09:54:19 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2006 : 09:55:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
What is the sound of one hand dripping?
What is the color of boredom?
Gray, of course.  |
-Chaloobi
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