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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
 Posted - 01/24/2002 : 05:20:19
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An interesting speech made by Penn (of Penn and Teller fame) just before performing his fire-eating act. Here's the site:
http://www.sincity.com/penn-n-teller/articles/fire-eating.html
And here's one interesting part from the middle of it:
quote:
And one of the things I've learned is there's a certain kind of person who comes to our show, and they may like the show, but they don't get it. And these are the people who cannot accept mystery.
Now I want to make this very clear to you: by "not accepting mystery," I am not talking about scientists, and I am not talking about skeptics. 'Cause I'm a skeptic, and I've always felt that skeptics love the mystery, and that's why they don't want to believe anything. They don't want to have any faith. They either want to have it scientifically proven over and over again, or they want to leave it alone. "We'll get to it. Let it go." The kind of people that cannot accept mystery are the kind of people that, when there's a mystery there, they just believe the first thing they're told for their whole life, or they pretend to have an open mind, so they'll believe anything that's popular that comes along, or they'll make up something that makes sense to them and they'll just believe it. Just anything to shut the mystery out of their heads and stop them from really thinking.
You've got to love this guy.
My kids still love me.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2002 : 06:26:10 [Permalink]
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I've always liked Penn, except for the time (at least, the one time I saw him) he appeared on "Politically Incorrect" along with a psychic (I think it was Sylvia Brown). He just jumped right in calling her a nut, and generally insulting her and anyone who believes in her.
Now of course, I totally agree with his sentiments. But his behavior was horrible, and most likely turned off the entire audience to Skepticism.
Of course, it also really showed how un-skeptical Bill Maher is. He started going on about how ghosts are real, because in some supposedly haunted theatre or somewhere, "you can feel them!".
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Sum Ergo Cogito
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 01/24/2002 06:26:59 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 01:00:22 [Permalink]
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I saw PI too. It was a pretty good show though Mahre looked like an idiot going on about trying John Walker for treason and didn't want to trifle with the fact that it's virtually impossible to prove in this case and is well defined in the constitution. Mahre seems to think treason is something he can define for us all. Scary thought.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 05:17:48 [Permalink]
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I think that's eloquent. I posted this on a "metaphysical" list that I'm on. An online friend that claims to be a multi-millionaire due to "New Thought" principles gave this response:
"If you believe it because a scientist says it, you are acting on faith. If you believe one scientist over another, that is faith. If you believe the consensus of opinion reported in the press or by your friends, that is faith. If you believe it because you think there are no errors in your observations or instruments, you are acting on faith.
If you do it today because it worked yesterday, you are acting on faith.
I have said before, that faith is the understanding and use of spiritual cause and effect. I mean the faith that is used to act on the basis of spiritual causation. But faith is just a part of cause and effect, it is the fulcrum of reasoning.
By spiritual causation I mean the effect of thoughts on your personal environment. Some will be through an obvious but often unlikely physical chain of cause and effect. Others will seem to defy any physical explanation. You will also notice that as you become more convinced of the action of mind as the basis of reality, your results will be swifter and more satisfying.
Of course it isn't really spiritual, as something different from everyday life. The only way things are made is the way they are
made. Who can you trust to tell you that you are fooling yourself? How can you be sure that your trust is not misplaced. You have to trust your trusting.
I have decided for myself that everything that brings my unconscious decisions to light is a good thing. I am not happy repeating the mental cliches of our cultural vocabulary, while pretending I am thinking.
I am willing to change."
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"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 01/25/2002 05:19:49 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 09:28:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
I saw PI too.
You must be talking about a recent show. I was referring to a show quite a few months ago in which Penn appeared on the panel, along with a psychic. Don't remember the topics, just Penn behaving like a rude, rabid cynic, rather than a polite, reasoned skeptic.
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 09:49:13 [Permalink]
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Wow, Gorgo,
so your friend is committing the age old error of equating trust in the scientific process with spiritual faith? I'll grant that he speaks well and probably is difficult to debate, but it boils down to the same thing.
Science does not equal faith. Predictable causation is on far firmer ground than post-event intrepretation.
I'm confused, though, since you have not said one way or the other: Are you with 'im, or agin 'im?
My kids still love me.
Edited by - Garrette on 01/25/2002 11:37:10 |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 09:49:58 [Permalink]
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Deleted because of a double post.
Edited by - Garrette on 01/25/2002 11:31:01 |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 10:14:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have said before, that faith is the understanding and use of spiritual cause and effect. I mean the faith that is used to act on the basis of spiritual causation. But faith is just a part of cause and effect, it is the fulcrum of reasoning.
By spiritual causation I mean the effect of thoughts on your personal environment. Some will be through an obvious but often unlikely physical chain of cause and effect. Others will seem to defy any physical explanation. You will also notice that as you become more convinced of the action of mind as the basis of reality, your results will be swifter and more satisfying.
So.. what this guy's saying is, "you can't really be sure of anything, so you might as well believe nonsense." He is trying to take Cartesian Systematic Doubt (the idea that you can really only be sure that you exist, because you might be hallucinating everything else) and use it as an excuse to believe whatever he feels. This guy claims to be rational?
-me. |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 10:17:04 [Permalink]
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Gorgo:
quote:
I have decided for myself that everything that brings my unconscious decisions to light is a good thing. I am not happy repeating the mental cliches of our cultural vocabulary, while pretending I am thinking.
Have you read Orwell's essay 'Politics and English'?
quote:
Science does not equal faith. Predictable causation is on far firmer ground than post-event intrepretation.
Well said Garrette! I would distinguish between faith and the axioms that allow us to live our lives without wondering "You know, I can't be sure that the sun didn't turn green 5 minutes ago..." (Remember, it would take about 8.33 minutes for the light to reach us)
I mean, we could doubt everything, and trust nothing, but it would make life virtually impossible. "Well, I don't know for certain that this Superman(tm) cape won't allow me to fly..."
Besides, there is Occam's razor.
"If anyone can show me, and prove to me, that I am wrong in
thought or deed, I will gladly change. I seek the truth, which
never yet hurt anybody."- Marcus Aurelius
Edited by - Xev on 01/25/2002 10:21:09 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 10:51:04 [Permalink]
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There was a time when I would have thought that there might be something to what he was saying, (that's why I got on the list) but not any more. I disagree, and although he's a wonderful generous person, I think of such fantasies as destructive to some degree or other. We've had a lot of conversations about it. I just thought some of you might give me a couple of different ways to say it.
As far as New Thought, there is certainly something to the idea that changing your thinking changes your life, but I can't see where that has anything to do with making up gods and "sprituality."
quote:
Wow, Gorgo,
so your friend is committing the age old error of equating trust in the scientific process with spiritual faith?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 10:58:05 [Permalink]
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I don't remember it. I'll take that as a recommendation and try to look it up. Thanks.
quote:
Have you read Orwell's essay 'Politics and English'?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 11:36:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
There was a time when I would have thought that there might be something to what he was saying, (that's why I got on the list) but not any more. I disagree, and although he's a wonderful generous person, I think of such fantasies as destructive to some degree or other.
Glad to hear it, and agreed.
"Faith...is the fulcrum of reasoning" strikes me as the epitome of the speciousness of this argument. It is idiocy in a tux. Well dressed, but still idiocy.
My kids still love me. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 11:39:03 [Permalink]
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Faith in science is completely different by definition than faith in religion (or spirituality, etc.)
We need to come up with a different term to use, so people will stop claiming that science is a religion because we have "faith" in it.
This is becoming a pet peeve, just like how creationists always want to interchange evolution and abiogenesis... 
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 11:52:25 [Permalink]
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Gorgo: Oooh! I should not try to say anything without having coffee first: It's 'Politics and the English Language', not 'Politics in English'.
Tokyodreamer: quote:
We need to come up with a different term to use, so people will stop claiming that science is a religion because we have "faith" in it.
How about 'axiomatic'?
Xev-Come not between the creationist and his pseudoscience-Bellringer |
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Marc_a_b
Skeptic Friend
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 11:59:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Faith in science is completely different by definition than faith in religion (or spirituality, etc.)
We need to come up with a different term to use, so people will stop claiming that science is a religion because we have "faith" in it.
I agree with you. In arguing with creationists I prefer not even using the word 'belief' when refering to science. Makes the two different beliefs sound like they are on equal footing. 'Understand' and 'evidence' are better words to use, though wording might get a bit akward.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 12:05:43 [Permalink]
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Thanks!
http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html
quote:
Gorgo: Oooh! I should not try to say anything without having coffee first: It's 'Politics and the English Language', not 'Politics in English'.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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