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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
 Posted - 02/13/2002 : 09:03:27 [Permalink]
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Phobia is not the best word, but has it already been stretched to mean something other than the clinical type of phobia?
I don't think disgust or prejudice means that one is afraid that they are homosexual, but what does it mean when someone is repulsed by something natural? I don't mean that everyone has to enjoy it, but to be disgusted is something physical, or almost physical. Does that mean that that person is not prejudiced in any way?
Is it possible that this person who says someone is homophobic means that that person is prejudiced? Is it possible that they are right?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 02/13/2002 09:04:38 |
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Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2002 : 09:43:58 [Permalink]
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I admit that the term Homophobic may not be the totally accurate term but it is the one most people are familiar with. I also do not understand any racial, ethnic or religious hatred. I do not hate Catholics for being Catholic even though I am skeptical of thier belief. Any bias is unreasonable except for those against things that do harm intentionally to others such as child pornography (but then those people don't believe they are hurting children either).
I also understand the person that lived in San Francisco feeling that throwing around the term homophobe everytime something does not go their way is disturbing. The same goes for playing the race card, or the feminist card around. As a women in medicine there are still people who believe the only thing a woman can be is a Peditrician. My med school professors were very old school and made my being a woman in a mans world hell but I ignored them because I knew what I could do.It just comes down to everyone should just be who they are and be the best of who they are and not worry about what other people think of them.
Oh and for you guys who like to watch lesbian sex, so do women.
I believe we all are basically mixed up sexually. We are all on a scale from totally heterosexual to totally homosexual and most of us fall somewhere in between. Some cultures do not even have a word for homosexual. So I guess I have come to the conclusion that it is a cultural bias.
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2002 : 10:03:31 [Permalink]
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Isn't being a Catholic harmful? I mean, isn't avoiding reality harmful? Isn't taking children to church harmful?
quote:
I also do not understand any racial, ethnic or religious hatred. I do not hate Catholics for being Catholic even though I am skeptical of thier belief. Any bias is unreasonable except for those against things that do harm intentionally to others such as child pornography (but then those people don't believe they are hurting children either).
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2002 : 12:04:05 [Permalink]
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…the debacle of getting funding for a disease that is now going to surpass the black plague in the number of world wide deaths because it was believed to be a Gay Disease.
Okay, now I don't want to seem the heartless blagard but here in San Francisco Gays are not the novelty that they are in most parts of the country. They still have "scared cow status" but I'm hoping that I can treat them like everyone else and express some skepticism here at SFN.
I know all about Africa but I'm going to confine my comments to the US.
First there is a tremendous amount of fund raising done for AIDS. Way out of proportion to the number of people who have it compared to, say, heart disease or ovarian cancer.
Secondly more straight men (sexual not comedic orientation) died in the US last year of breast cancer than did of AIDS (as per NPR). It is a mostly gay disease.
There is an old vaudeville routine that goes some thing like "Doctor, doctor...it hurts when I do that!"
"So don't do that!"
The "A" in AIDS stands for Acquired. It doesn't fly through the air looking for you. You have to go out and find it. It is strongly related to definite known activities. The people who engage in these activities have been informed of the hazards involved.
It's a bit like X-sports. The participants know in advance that they are dangerous. The danger may even be part of the appeal. Now when these people get hurt I do feel bad for them. Like Christopher Reeve paralyzed while jumping horses. But he did know the risks before hand and he accepted them. He decided that the fun he would have was worth the risk of injury or death.(He may have since changed his mind) As sympathetic as I might be for his plight the money I donate to medical research goes to cancer, the victims of which are struck "out of the blue." I also donate to the NYC Fireman's fund. True they also knew the risks and chose to take them-but their selfless motives are what sway me.
Walking through the Castro district here, one sees posted every six feet signs advertising "parties" which revolve around deviant sex and cat tranquilizers. It's reported on local TV that these gatherings attract tens of thousands of men from across the country every year.
It is not like these guys are idiots or completely uninformed. They know the risks and they choose to take them.
I'm sorry that they are going to die slow horrible deaths. My heart goes out to them. But if we are not going to quarantine AIDS suffers and potential AIDS victims throw all caution to the wind, what is there for the rest of us to do?
That we should find a cure goes without saying. But what needs to be addressed is that we do not now have a cure nor does it look like we'll have one soon. Attention should be paid to the way things are instead of the way things should be.
"Doctor, Doctor...I die when I do that!"
"So don't do that."
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2002 : 16:18:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gee whiz, Xev, I guess we hardly know ye
At least you avoided the pun 'I'm glad you decided to come out with that'.
I think that pun has been old since the planck epoch. 
Right, 'homophobia' dosen't work, 'homorepulsion' dosen't cover the behavior described, 'homoist' sounds wierd (made me think of a Chinese dumpling), hmm.
Schwul furcht? German for 'fear of homosexuals'...I think. My German is ooky.
(But it might be fun to confuse people. Insulting people in other languages is fuuuuun)
Slater:
quote:
First there is a tremendous amount of fund raising done for AIDS. Way out of proportion to the number of people who have it compared to, say, heart disease or ovarian cancer.
Hmm, I have no idea what the statistics are here.....
quote:
Secondly more straight men (sexual not comedic orientation) died in the US last year of breast cancer than did of AIDS (as per NPR). It is a mostly gay disease.
Care to back that up with some statistics? I do not think 'Talk of the Nation' is the same as the Statistical Abstract of the United States....
quote:
That we should find a cure goes without saying. But what needs to be addressed is that we do not now have a cure nor does it look like we'll have one soon. Attention should be paid to the way things are instead of the way things should be.
Sure, more attention should be paid to prevention.
On the other hand, studying AIDS will not only help us find treatments for it, it will help us learn more about viruses in general.
And I must confess a certain fascination with viruses (virii?).
Spelling.....
Xev -Ad astra!- Bellringer
Edited by - Xev on 02/13/2002 16:19:40 |
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Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2002 : 21:15:55 [Permalink]
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Slater, my man, have you got your head under a rock? I am not sure you are seeing the real world here. I am a doctor and believe me thy could raise twice as much money then they do now in the US and it still would not be anywhere near the amount of money needed to scratch the surface. As for AIDS being acquired so is most heart disease and lung cancer. So is diabetes and morbid obesity. IN this world people starve to death everyday but in America we are eating ourselves to death. I read the article about the myth of Heart Disease and there is some truth there but it is also a fact thatbefore WWI when cigarettes were given free to the soldiers Lung Cancer was unheard of.Your reply shows its own form anti-homosexual thinking.
AIDs is still growing at an alarming rate in the United States in both the Gay and Straight communities. In Africa it kills millions of people a year. We have no cure, we have no vaccines and the drugs we have now are already losing there potency against the aids virus. We may now be spending money on research but the first eight years Ronald Reagan never even mentioned the word Aids.
This disease is worse then the black plague. That at least killed quickly and it killed its host before it could be passed on to others. Aids will have killed more people in 25 years then it took the plague 200 years to do. It is ugly, scary and I hope everyone here never has to face the diagnosis for themselves or anyone they love.
I urge that everyone read "And The Band Played On" by the late Randy Shilts who was a gay activist that died of Aids and was a personal friend of mine. Or watch the video. Then you'll know what the "butchers bill" really is for AIDS patients in this country.
Aids is not a gay disease or a junkie disease or something you can catch but with a little medication live a long normal life. At this point it is still a death sentance.
Can you tell I'm pissed?
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission!
Edited by - dr shari on 02/13/2002 21:29:30
Edited by - dr shari on 02/13/2002 21:31:17 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2002 : 21:52:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Your reply shows its own form anti-homosexual thinking.
Could you explain why you think this? This is a pet peeve of mine, and it seems this might be a case. One can't express opinions differing from the Politically Correct about rape, race issues, homosexuality (especially AIDS), without someone accusing them of:
Justifying rape.
Being a racist.
Being anti-homosexual.
quote:
Can you tell I'm pissed?
I guess, but I really don't have any clear idea why. You didn't address any of Slater's points head-on. What specifically do you have a problem with, and what is your evidence/reasoning that he is wrong? (I'm not saying you don't have a good reason, I just can't see it.)
And a question of my own:
quote:
Aids is not a gay disease or a junkie disease
Why is pointing out the simple fact that in the U.S.A., the vast majority of people with HIV/AIDS are ones who engage in either intravenous drug use or homosexual sex, and that these people are well informed beforehand about the dangers, met with such hostility?
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2002 : 22:25:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
As for AIDS being acquired so is most heart disease and lung cancer. So is diabetes and morbid obesity. IN this world people starve to death everyday but in America we are eating ourselves to death. I read the article about the myth of Heart Disease and there is some truth there but it is also a fact that before WWI when cigarettes were given free to the soldiers Lung Cancer was unheard of.
Good point, lung cancer and obesity are due to actions that are just as irresponsible as those that transmit HIV.
And, HIV is not necessarily acquired through either IV drug use or homosexual sex. Heterosexual sex proves an effective vector. And, I need not add that the disease is transmitted from mother to fetus.
quote:
This disease is worse then the black plague. That at least killed quickly and it killed its host before it could be passed on to others.
You are thinking of ebola, perchance? The black death killed quickly, but the flea-rat-flea-human vector meant that it could be transferred anyway.
And then it mutated to the pneumatic form, which caused a the disease to be transmitted to anyone tending the patient.
Tokyodreamer:
quote:
Why is pointing out the simple fact that in the U.S.A., the vast majority of people with HIV/ AIDS are ones who engage in either intravenous drug use or homosexual sex, and that these people are well informed beforehand about the dangers, met with such hostility?
Statistics please. I know that this was the origional vector, but I have heard that things have changed.
Or so the PSAs tell me. *Rolls eyes*
Now we could play the 'You're biased!' 'No, you're biased!' game all night. 'Xev is biased because she is bi, and an immunology student to boot!' 'Slater is biased because - because - because he is a poopy head!'
But let's not play that game. It's irrelevent, as most ad hominem attacks are. Let's get back to the discussion without accusing anyone of bias. We've all done that, to some degree, already.
"For we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of skepticism"
Thought constitutes the greatness of man -Pascal |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 06:58:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
But let's not play that game. It's irrelevent
Yes, this is my point. You respond by asking for statistics and evidence, not getting mad and calling people names.
If I find out that I am wrong, and that more heterosexual non-intravenous drug users are getting AIDS now, than gay men and intravenous drug users, of course I have no problem at all with that, and will be better informed.
But what pisses me off is people assuming that because you ask questions without automatically accepting the mainstream views in such cases as this, that you have some kind of agenda, or are anti-whatever. 
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 07:04:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Tokyodreamer:
quote:
Why is pointing out the simple fact that in the U.S.A., the vast majority of people with HIV/ AIDS are ones who engage in either intravenous drug use or homosexual sex, and that these people are well informed beforehand about the dangers, met with such hostility?
Statistics please. I know that this was the origional vector, but I have heard that things have changed.
From http://www.avert.org/statsum.htm :
quote:
As of the end of the December 2000, 774,467 AIDS cases in the USA had been reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)..
46% were in men who have sex with men (MSM),
25% in injecting drug users,
11% in persons infected heterosexually, and 1% in persons infected through blood or blood products.
They get this info from the CDC, so I tracked it down there:
Men who have sex with men: 355,409 - 355,409
Injecting Drug Use: 140,536 52,991 193,527
Men who have sex with men and inject drugs 48,989 - 48,989
Hemophilia/coagulation disorder 4,907 283 5,190
Heterosexual contact 29,460 52,520 81,981
Recipient of blood transfusion, blood
components, or tissue 4,971 3,806 8,777
Risk not reported or identified 51,179 20,504 71,686
the columns are "Men" "Women" and "Total"
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats.htm
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Sum Ergo Cogito
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 02/14/2002 07:30:55 |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 11:49:54 [Permalink]
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There was no post here. Scroll down. You are getting sleepy. When you wake up, you will send Xev a message with your credit card information. Scroll down.
Edited by - Xev on 02/14/2002 12:15:27 |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 12:07:56 [Permalink]
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Thank you Tokyodreamer. It would seem that AIDs is still primarily a 'gay' disease in America.
quote:
Of new infections among men in the United States, CDC estimates that approximately 60 percent of men were infected through homosexual sex, 25 percent through injection drug use, and 15 percent through heterosexual sex. Of newly infected men, approximately 50 percent are black, 30 percent are white, 20 percent are Hispanic, and a small percentage are members of other racial/ethnic groups.(5)
Of new infections among women in the United States, CDC estimates that approximately 75 percent of women were infected through heterosexual sex and 25 percent through injection drug use. Of newly infected women, approximately 64 percent are black, 18 percent are white, 18 percent are Hispanic, and a small percentage are members of other racial/ethnic groups.(5)
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/aidsstat.htm
Aiyee, all the pretty buttons, I can't seem to press the right ones.
Edited by - Xev on 02/14/2002 12:18:35
Edited by - Xev on 02/14/2002 12:19:35 |
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Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 13:22:14 [Permalink]
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I was very angry at the idea that people are still getting infected and dying everyday of AIDS and some people seem to be just as blind to that as they were when it was still Gay Related Immunity Deficiancy. Does it matter how a disease is acquired to justify the treatment of the person who has it?
I have no problem with differing opinions. It is what evolves us as a people but I have a problem with people who have made opinions that fly in the face of facts. What we know about AIDS is pretty hard science and that it is still directed at gay men bothers me.
We don't have enough money for a disease that is killing off a huge continent of people through both homo and heterosexual sex. It did peak in the US in 1995 with 50,260 deaths and by 2000 the rate has dropped to 8,867. That same year about 800 men were diagnosed with breast cancer and the death rate was under 220.
Slater may not be homophobic but he is either misinformed or uninformed about a disease I still see weekly in my office. 100% celebacy and absolutely no intervenous drug use is the closest thing to safe you can get be in this country and accidents still do happen and infect people.
Actually putting AIDS aside hepatitis is a far more prevelent and just as deadly an illness as any sexual transmitted disease.
But the main point for me in this whole discussion that I forgot when I responded to Slater is why can't we accept the fact that people of all races, creeds, religions(or lack of) and sexual orientation have the right to love one another and that love is the most positive force in any and all existances. My being angry was wrong and I apologize. I should have been a teacher rather then forcing my opinion on others. Life is too short to dirty up my Karma with negitivity.
Peace Love Joy Happiness and Harmony
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission!
Edited by - dr shari on 02/14/2002 13:26:29 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 13:49:22 [Permalink]
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I don't think Slater said that we shouldn't spend money on AIDS. I think he said that that isn't his first priority. No crime in that.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 13:56:25 [Permalink]
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Statistics don't lie, of course, but is the fact that most new cases of AIDS appear in gay men supposed to help us make a moral judgement about how tenaciously to pursue a cure? Forgive me if I am misinterpreting, but the tone of Slater's case seems to be, "We'll find you a cure boys don't rush us, just don't poke around where you're not supposed to until then." I have been an outspoken defender of the genetic normalcy of homosexuality and this whole argument just seems like a step backward.
Laws of Thermodynamics:
1. You cannot win.
2. You cannot break even.
3. You cannot stop playing the game. |
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