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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 02/14/2002 : 14:30:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Forgive me if I am misinterpreting, but the tone of Slater's case seems to be, "We'll find you a cure boys don't rush us, just don't poke around where you're not supposed to until then."
Slater will have to tell us himself whether or not you are misinterpreting, but I think from his post, it goes much deeper than what you are saying here.
quote:
Walking through the Castro district here, one sees posted every six feet signs advertising "parties" which revolve around deviant sex and cat tranquilizers.
and the question at the heart of the matter, which I would love to here others' responses to:
quote:
But if we are not going to quarantine AIDS suffers and potential AIDS victims throw all caution to the wind, what is there for the rest of us to do?
Is it really unreasonable to ask that people who are engaging in such dangerous activities to stop engaging in such dangerous activities, or is it ok for them to just continue on, and expect the world to spend millions and millions on finding a cure? Keep in mind, that in this context, we are not just talking about the natural urge to have sex. We are talking loose, anonymous, multiple partner, strangers having sex at sex orgy party, sex.
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Sum Ergo Cogito
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 02/14/2002 14:34:16 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 14:55:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
and the question at the heart of the matter, which I would love to here others' responses to:
[quote]But if we are not going to quarantine AIDS suffers and potential AIDS victims throw all caution to the wind, what is there for the rest of us to do?
Is it really unreasonable to ask that people who are engaging in such dangerous activities to stop engaging in such dangerous activities, or is it ok for them to just continue on, and expect the world to spend millions and millions on finding a cure? Keep in mind, that in this context, we are not just talking about the natural urge to have sex. We are talking loose, anonymous, multiple partner, strangers having sex at sex orgy party, sex.
A couple of things remain unclear. First, I don't know what you mean when you say "natural urge to have sex." In my observation, sexual urges run the gamut from extreme fridigity to extreme promiscuity. I know am in no position to determine what level of sexual urge is natural. Second, is it reasonable to assume that orgy parties are of prime concern? I find it terribly hard to believe that such things are all that common. Further, I think characterizing the entire gay male community as "throw[ing] all caution to the wind," is a gross caricature of reality.
Laws of Thermodynamics:
1. You cannot win.
2. You cannot break even.
3. You cannot stop playing the game.
Edited by - phdreamer on 02/14/2002 14:57:43
Edited by - phdreamer on 02/14/2002 14:58:39 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 16:19:59 [Permalink]
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Slater, my man, have you got your head under a rock?
I am not sure you are seeing the real world here.
That's funny, I was thinking the same thing about your first post on this thread.
I am a doctor and believe me thy could raise twice as much money then they do now in the US and it still would not be anywhere near the amount of money needed to scratch the surface.
There are a number of us who are doctors here. I don't begrudge anyone their funding. Nor do I begrudge the implication that you can buy a cure. I don't believe it (see J. Salk) but I don't begrudge it.
As for AIDS being acquired so is most heart disease and lung cancer. So is diabetes and morbid obesity. IN this world people starve to death everyday but in America we are eating ourselves to death.
So? Are you saying that there should be treatments to cure all of these acquired diseases? I agree completely.
But there aren't any cures. The only thing we have is prevention. This is what I meant by telling the difference between the way the world should be and the way it actually is.
To follow the logic of your first post the reason so many people are dying of lung cancer is because of the prejudiced people who hate smokers. They aren't donating money for research.
No, the reason they are dying is, despite being warned on every pack they buy they have decided to "risk it" anyway. It would be wonderful if we could save them--but we can't yet. The only ones who can save them are themselves. Our hands are tied, short of physically forcing them to stop the harmful activity, there is nothing we can do.
Your reply shows its own form anti-homosexual thinking.
Really? Bullshit.
I admit that I am racially prejudiced. The minute I hear that someone is Polynesian I think highly of them. Behavior that I find repugnant in members of my own race seems some how charming in them. This is very wrong of me to have such racist attitudes.
You express the same sorts of attitudes towards Gays. You are so concerned that there are people who hate them and don't view them as individuals. But you overlook all the people who do not and you over look all the people who want to give them preferential treatment. The fact that I treat them the same as I do everyone else you consider anti-homosexual. It doesn't sound like I'm the one with the problem.
Your prejudice is very common. Every year here we have "Gay Pride Weekend". The city becomes unlivable, noise, filth, blocked traffic, vandalism. Laws about public disturbance and decency cease to be enforced. Public drug use and exposing ones self in public aren't crimes.
If you are gay.
The rest of us would still be carted off to jail.
So yeah there is a lot of prejudice being shown towards gays, but most of it is pro.
AIDs is still growing at an alarming rate in the United States in both the Gay and Straight communities.
And why is that?
Are the people who hate Gays giving it to them?
Are those nasty Xian -Right-wing- wrath -O'God people giving it to them?
No. It doesn't matter in the least if these "A" holes love Gays or want to dance on their graves. They aren't the ones who are spreading the disease. And they can't make people die just by praying them to death.
We have no cure, we have no vaccines and the drugs we have now are already losing there potency against the aids virus.
Exactly my point. This has nothing to do with morality or even personal sensibilities. It a damn VIRUS forchristssake.
Since we have no cure or vaccines that means we have only one ace in the hole. We know the specific activities that spread it.
We may now be spending money on research but the first eight years Ronald Reagan never even mentioned the word Aids.
There is a slogan for Lotto "You hav't be in it to win it!" But actually the odds of winning without buying a ticket are almost the same as with having a ticket. Zero.
Frankly if the track record for cancer, heart disease, di |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 17:53:32 [Permalink]
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Why is it that I write one thing then am called on saying something else?
Shari, I said that more STRAIGHT men died of breast cancer. Not more men. To catch the AIDS virus it must get into your blood. Rarely in heterosexual intercourse is a man's blood stream exposed. In cases of Aids being transmitted by heterosexual sex it is generally the woman who is the victim.
Statistics don't lie, of course, but is the fact that most new cases of AIDS appear in gay men supposed to help us make a moral judgement about how tenaciously to pursue a cure?
Where the Hell did you get this from? Virus' don't have morals. Nor do they have cures.
Forgive me if I am misinterpreting, but the tone of Slater's case seems to be, "We'll find you a cure boys don't rush us, just don't poke around where you're not supposed to until then."
Slater's tone was the same as Norm Abrams when he tells you to read and understand the safety instructions before operating any power tools. And ALWAYS wear your safety goggles.
I don't promise that we'll find a cure ever. It's a fucking Virus! What are you supposed to do to kill it? Maybe we can find a vaccine like we did for smallpox but it doesn't look likely. Even if we did people who already had it would still be doomed.
Do you want to pretend that the Gay men who are catching this are the ones with stable long term relationships?
The problem is that the man who is most at risk is one who is following the scenario of having unprotected anal sex with substantial numbers of casual partners.
Is that immoral?
Damn straight it's immoral. But it isn't the immorality that is the problem. It's the self destructive stupidity that is the problem. Immorality is only an opinion, death is a fact.
The AIDS virus doesn't care if it is PC to condone this behavior or not. When I say stop buggering strangers I say it for the same reason that Norm doesn't want you to stick your hand into a moving table saw.
just don't poke around where you're not supposed to until then Either that or don't complain to us when you are dying, we did warn you that we haven't any way to save you. Something about taking personal responsibility-the only other option is to risk a horrible lingering death.
I have been an outspoken defender of the genetic normalcy of homosexuality and this whole argument just seems like a step backward.
A defender of genetic normalcy? What the does that mean? Are you talking about public opinion? Because I'm not. I'm talking about what amounts to suicidal behavior. Do you think if homosexuality lost any stigma tomorrow that this virus would go away?
is it reasonable to assume that orgy parties are of prime concern?
I guess you aren't in a major metropolitan area or you wouldn't ask. Yes, they are a big concern. The orgy/parties in particular and the Gay Clubs in general.
I find it terribly hard to believe that such things are all that common.
Welcome to the twenty-first century.
Further, I think characterizing the entire gay male community as "throw[ing] all caution to the wind," is a gross caricature of reality. It would be if I had done that. One of the problems I have found with defenders of causes is that they see offences where none are given.
The Gays who are throwing caution to the wind are only those who are having unprotected sex with multiple strangers.
What the proportion of that is compared with Gays in stable relationships I have no idea.
If we have no means of prevention, or a cure, what, other than personal responsibility, can you suggest?
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 18:28:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't promise that we'll find a cure ever. It's a fucking Virus! What are you supposed to do to kill it?
Interfere with the reproductive cycle by meddling with its DNA is a possibility....
But I digress.
Now what the fuck are we arguing about?
Since a cure or vaccine is unlikely, the focus should be on prevention and personal responsibility?
I do not see any cause for dispute there.
The majority of new HIV infections are caused by irresponsible behavior by the victim.
Should that affect funding for the disease? I think not.
Viruses mutate, and we do not want to end up with a more virulant strain.
It is obviously in the best interest of society to have healthy members.
Not all who are infected are infected by thier own stupidity. Besides, to make mistakes, to do stupid things like have unprotected sex, that is the nature of humans. We are a rather stupid species.
To say that funding for AIDS research should be reduced because the victims are often responsible for contracting the virus is like refusing to treat a man who failed to use his power saw properly and managed to hurt himself.
Finally, funding medical research is always a good thing.
Thought constitutes the greatness of man -Pascal
Edited by - Xev on 02/14/2002 19:43:15 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 19:34:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Statistics don't lie, of course, but is the fact that most new cases of AIDS appear in gay men supposed to help us make a moral judgement about how tenaciously to pursue a cure?
Where the Hell did you get this from? Virus' don't have morals. Nor do they have cures.
Of course not. The moral decision is how aggressively we want to pursue a cure or a vaccine when us heterosexuals are not really at risk and we can just presume that most gay men have all night orgies which propogate AIDS exponentially in their community and, oh well, it's their behavior that got them there. We're under no obligation to speed this up if it's just homosexuals who are at risk. We can just tell them to stop being homosexuals and if they don't listen that's their fault.
quote:
Forgive me if I am misinterpreting, but the tone of Slater's case seems to be, "We'll find you a cure boys don't rush us, just don't poke around where you're not supposed to until then."
Slater's tone was the same as Norm Abrams when he tells you to read and understand the safety instructions before operating any power tools. And ALWAYS wear your safety goggles.
I don't promise that we'll find a cure ever. It's a fucking Virus! What are you supposed to do to kill it? Maybe we can find a vaccine like we did for smallpox but it doesn't look likely. Even if we did people who already had it would still be doomed.
Do you want to pretend that the Gay men who are catching this are the ones with stable long term relationships?
The problem is that the man who is most at risk is one who is following the scenario of having unprotected anal sex with substantial numbers of casual partners.
Is that immoral?
Damn straight it's immoral. But it isn't the immorality that is the problem. It's the self destructive stupidity that is the problem. Immorality is only an opinion, death is a fact.
The AIDS virus doesn't care if it is PC to condone this behavior or not. When I say stop buggering strangers I say it for the same reason that Norm doesn't want you to stick your hand into a moving table saw.
Homosexual orgies may be exceedingly high risk but it's patently unprovable that most AIDS transmission is accomplished in that setting. Further, you're going to run into an evolutionary wall no matter how much you insist it isn't there. Telling people to ignore their biological drives isn't going to get you far no matter what the resultant risk. It should be painfully obvious after 2000 years of Christianity that simply demanding that people not have sex is an exercise in futility. Even careful and well-informed folks have too much to drink and even careful and well-informed folks let their lust get the better of them.
quote:
just don't poke around where you're not supposed to until then Either that or don't complain to us when you are dying, we did warn you that we haven't any way to save you. Something about taking personal responsibility-the only other option is to risk a horrible lingering death.
This is beside the point. The concern is whether our value judgements about a minority behavior influence the amount of attention we are prone to give to afflictions that are epidemic only to that minority.
quote:
I have been an outspoken defender of the genetic normalcy of homosexuality and this whole argument just seems like a step backward.
A defender of genetic normalcy? What the does that mean? Are you talking about public opinion? Because I'm not. I'm talking about what amounts to suicidal behavior. Do you think if homosexuality lost any stigma tomorrow that this virus would go away?
Strawman. See above.
quote:
is it reasonable to assume that orgy parties are of prime concern?
I guess you aren't in a major metropolitan area or you wouldn't ask. Yes, they are a big concern. The orgy/parties in particular and the Gay Clubs in general.
I find it terribly hard to believe that such things are all that common.
Welcome to the twenty-first century.
Is it your opinion that a higher percentage of homosexuals than heterosexuals engage in high-risk sexual behavior?
quote:
Further, I think characterizing the entire gay male community as "throw[ing] all caution to the wind," is a gross caricature of reality. It would be if I had done that. One of the problems I have found with defenders of causes is that they see offences where none are given.
The Gays who are throwing caution to the wind are only those who are having unprotected sex with multiple strangers.
What the proportion of that is compared with Gays in stable relationships I have no idea.
This is what I was responding to:
quote:
But if we are not going to quarantine AIDS suffers and potential AIDS victims throw all caution to the wind, what is there for the rest of us to do?
It was actually quoted by TD, so if it lacks proper context as it is here, I apologize that I took this as a generalizaion.
quote:
If we have no means of prevention, or a cure, what, other than personal responsibility, can you suggest?
I cannot argue that our options are not limited. My actual concern is stated above.
Laws of Thermodynamics:
1. You cannot win.
2. You cannot break even.
3. You cannot stop playing the game. |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 19:40:45 [Permalink]
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It seems to me that people who regard AIDS as a somebody-else-problem or their-own-fault don't have quite grasped the whole gravity of this crisis we are facing.
Suggesting celebacy or at least monogamy as a passable preventation methode appears to me as a bit unrealistic. Fidelity would be nice, but somebdy does not deserve to die for cheating on his partner.
Not everybody who engages in irresposible activities actually knows better; At least not much more than the smokers whose lawyers are currently getting rich of the tobacco indutry.
A lot could be done by sexual education at school and public awareness campaings.
But if people would rather have a high teenpregnaciy rate then teaching their children about sex, the chances for any kind of program that might help prevent more AIDS infections by telling people about the disease are out of question.
At the moment AIDS in Europe and Northern-America may appear a problem for mostly homosexuals, but if you take a look at Asia or Africa you will find that it might not stay that way.
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 19:45:51 [Permalink]
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Lars:
quote:
Suggesting celebacy or at least monogamy as a passable preventation methode appears to me as a bit unrealistic. Fidelity would be nice, but somebdy does not deserve to die for cheating on his partner.
Icky, celibacy and monogamy. Say not such horrible words.
But prevention can be as simple as using condoms....
Thought constitutes the greatness of man -Pascal |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 20:19:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
But prevention can be as simple as using condoms....
Yeah, but you have to tell them that. Some people think that telling people about codoms is against the bible or something.
You also have to explain to them that they need to. Most people are somewhat awre of AIDS on general terms, but still think of it as something that happens to other people. They have to get educated that it is a very real danger in order to get them to actually use condoms.
There are again people that think, that telling people how to have safe sex is somehow approving of them having sex. They also think that aproving of people having sex under certain conditions or sometimes in general is a bad thing.
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 20:46:40 [Permalink]
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Folks: There is no such thing as *safe sex* and never was. The list of sexually-transmitted diseases which one can acquire is as long as your arm -- both arms, even more. You can get sexually-transmitted diseases (including AIDS) from your spouse (if your spouse has been stupidly/ignorantly out *playing around*). Being *picky* about whom you marry (or live with) is essential. Otherwise, you could end up *dead*.
I have been following the AIDS epidemic ever since it began in this country with the strange illnesses that the medical profession seldom saw except in those men who have had extremely weakened immune systems. I was once a classical ballet dancer (School of American Ballet/New York City Opera). Many of my friends (of the opposite sex) have already died. Two of my choreographers died (probably of AIDS). Dancers I once knew died. They were wonderful people who were there at the beginning of this tragedy and may have been caught by it.
It was so sad watching this series of illnesses and deaths happen. Today, it is a travesty. If sexually-active people know what causes AIDS (and other sexually-transmitted diseases) what is the matter with them? Why do they continue their risky behavior? It is so very, very sad!
Perhaps the ease of acquiring sexually-transmitted diseases is the reason that most religions have frowned upon sexually risky behavior and have labeled such behavior as *sinful*.
Slater: I agree with everything you have written. If people do not wake up before it is too late, many, many more of them will die awful deaths and there is nothing to help them -- other than temporarily and at great cost to the rest of society who has been warning them repeatedly of the consequences of risky behavior (of all kinds). There are the religious idiots who want to outlaw the distribution of condoms to diminish the occurrence of sexually-transmitted diseases. These same nasty people want to keep hypodermic-needle distribution away from drug addicts. But the greatest blame is with the knowing participants who fail to heed the warnings against such behavior.
The rest of us have almost given up and are left with protecting ourselves against possible infection.
Sexual promiscuity of any kind can have drastic results. Other sexually-transmitted diseases (and many other non-sexually-transmitted diseases) have become penicillin-resistant and are back to being killers because of the ignorant people who misuse antibiotics for viral diseases, such as colds and flu (which cannot be helped with antibiotics). Such dummies! They (and the doctors who stupidly misprescribe antibiotics for viral diseaqses) are to blame for such loss of antibiotic treatment for the rest of us who are not idiots about their use.
Sorry for rambling. It is maddening to have such knowledge and to be unable to help people who will die from their own ignorance.
ljbrs   
"Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error." Goethe |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 23:08:42 [Permalink]
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Of course not. The moral decision is how aggressively we want to pursue a cure or a vaccine when us heterosexuals are not really at risk and we can just presume that most gay men have all night orgies which propogate AIDS exponentially in their community and, oh well, it's their behavior that got them there. We're under no obligation to speed this up if it's just homosexuals who are at risk. We can just tell them to stop being homosexuals and if they don't listen that's their fault.
If there were such a word as Straightaphobic I'd be sorely tempted use it here. This is a scenario that just isn't happening. There is a tremendous amount of money being spent on AIDS research and it is extremely insulting to a lot of dedicated people to imply that it's not being done. This smells like a Fox moon hoax conspiracy.
But something you have to understand about medical research. It's slow and uneven.
They can give you a heart transplant-but they can't cure heart disease.
I don't have cancer now because they hacked it out-they didn't cure it. Shari has cancer and she's doomed because it isn't something you can cut out.
You cut off your hand and they can put it back on. You develop diabetes and they'll give you stop gaps.
Medical Science hasn't been around that long and the subject is so complicated that it will take half of forever to figure it out. They are doing their best-but their best isn't good enough at this stage.
Messing with AIDS virus DNA sounds cool but no one yet knows how to do it.
To claim that AIDS is a pandemic because of lack of research is like claiming that it was a lack of lifeboats that sunk the Titanic.
Homosexual orgies may be exceedingly high risk but it's patently unprovable that most AIDS transmission is accomplished in that setting.
So are you so committed to defending a "gay life-style" that you refuse to call high risk behavior dangerous?
Telling people to ignore their biological drives isn't going to get you far no matter what the resultant risk. If your "biological drive" is such that it requires you to have anal intercourse with multiple strangers without "protection" (as ineffectual as it might be) during a time of what can only be called a plague, when there are no effective treatments to prevent a truly horrible death then go ahead. Knock yourself out. But it would be a good idea to have your will in order.
Even careful and well-informed folks have too much to drink and even careful and well-informed folks let their lust get the better of them. Strawman. You keep coming from a stance as if someone is saying these people deserve to die. No one is even implying that. What is being said is that there is no way to rescue a person who contracts the disease. The only way that they can hope to avoid dying from it is not to contract it in the first place. This entire argument that somehow other people aren't doing enough because of their hatred of Gays is insane. There is nothing anyone can do once you have it.
The concern is whether our value judgements about a minority behavior influence the amount of attention we are prone to give to afflictions that are epidemic only to that minority.
I don't know where you are living but the United States doesn't work that way. When I consider all the people and all the hard work that they've done fighting this epidemic ...why...you should have your mouth washed out with soap.
Is it your opinion that a higher percentage of homosexuals than heterosexuals engage in high-risk sexual behavior?
Lets compare the number of Homosexuals in the US with the number of Straight. Then we can compare the percent of the Gay population that has contracted AIDS compared to the percentage of Straight that has. If we make the assumption that participating in high-risk behavior leaves you with the same probability of contracting the disease no matter what your orientation.
Since we find that the Gay population is only a small percent of the Straight, but we also find that the number of Gays with AIDS is many times that of Straight, the only logical conclusion is that they must participate in high-risk behaviors to a degree undreamed of by the Straight population.
I cannot argue that our options are not limited. My actual concern is stated above.
My concern is that a trendy PC value system will instead of insuring the rights of a minority (as is it's stated purpose) cause their extinction.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2002 : 05:02:31 [Permalink]
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I think people have been told and told about safer sex. Another option someone mentioned was quarantine. How is that accomplished? Someone mentioned lepers. I think leper colonies were ended before a cure was found, weren't they?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2002 : 06:33:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
You keep coming from a stance as if someone is saying these people deserve to die. No one is even implying that.
Bingo. This is what my concern was when I first posted. I don't understand where the 'anti-homosexual' charge came from.
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2002 : 08:08:05 [Permalink]
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I'm going to defer at this point because I fear accusing someone of something of which they are not guilty. I maintain my concern that labeling AIDS a high-risk gay disease will marginalize efforts to treat it, but I hope my concerns are just that.
Laws of Thermodynamics:
1. You cannot win.
2. You cannot break even.
3. You cannot stop playing the game. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2002 : 10:12:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Another option someone mentioned was quarantine. How is that accomplished? Someone mentioned lepers. I think leper colonies were ended before a cure was found, weren't they?
The problem with my suggestion of quarantine is that it is a clear violation of the victim's civil liberties. They are being imprisoned without having been convicted of a crime.
In the 19th Century it was possible to do things like that because a guiding rule of law was that the concerns of the many out weight those of the few. Since the 1960's that has ceased to be the case. (See the theme of every "Dirty Harry" movie)
Also AIDS and Hansen's disease share another aspect, they aren't very contagious. Victims of both these diseases aren't at all dangerous to have around you in public.
That's one of the really big PR problems AIDS has. One group is saying Don't ostracize people who have AIDS. Don't fire them from your business. They aren't a threat to any one. You can't catch AIDS from being around them. Be nice.
Another group is saying AAAAHHHH it's not a Gay disease if we don't find a cure everyone in the world is going to die of it. The virus is even in sweat and tears. Mosquitoes from Fire Island will infect everyone with it.
That's quite a "mixed message."
Back in the Clinton White House there had been a luncheon for all the Gay members of Congress. A bunch of them had AIDS, in fact the Rep from Greenwich Village's platform had been "Vote for me just because I have AIDS." (Talk about term limits…)
When the Secret Service man greeted them at the door with a handshake he was wearing a surgical glove. Well, the Greenwich Village guy had a "prissy fit" on the spot. He wanted the Secret Service agent fired. Then he went to the TV news to demand it. Finally he was interviewed on New York Public Radio. I actually phoned in with the question How can you fault the Secret Service's lack of education causing him to be overly cautious when your own lack of education caused you to contract the disease?
I got to ask it, but no one chose to answer it.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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