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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
 Posted - 06/06/2001 : 01:44:35
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I was not sure if this should be here or in the Religion forum, so I arbitrarily chose.
I participated in the local VFW's Memorial Day event (for lack of a better term), and the guest speaker read a mandate from the President declaring that day to be a "Day of Prayer" for the people who died, and for those still deployed.
I must admit, I was at first touched by the sentimentality of the statement, until the actual group prayer was spoken. Since I was in uniform, I felt self conscious that I was not praying. This lead me to wonder, "is it acceptable for my Commander In Chief to order me to pray?"
I would appreciate any insight to this.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 02:16:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
This lead me to wonder, "is it acceptable for my Commander In Chief to order me to pray?"
Boron,
Absolutely NOT. I'd get dishonorably discharged before being forced to do something like that against my convictions.
Then get a lawyer.
Well, the question was is it acceptable. NO. Never having been in the armed forces, don't know what the consequences would be, that's something an individual has to decide if he wants to accept. |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 02:50:01 [Permalink]
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No way Boron. Stick to your guns.
Back when I was still in the game, one of my duties was to provide PA. During the prayer part, (Gotta keep those military chaplins employed), I would simply sit quietly. Several times I was approached with an admonishment that I didn't have my head properly bowed. (If these people followed their own advice, how did they know, hmmm?) After all the threats of damnation, etc, I just say "So do something about it". They never followed through, much to my disappointment.
BTW, I was never invited to provide the PA for a national day of prayer again.
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 09:17:47 [Permalink]
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Is designating a "Day of Prayer" really an order to pray? I wouldn't think so. But I agree, if I were ever ordered to pray, I would most certainly refuse.
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 10:40:28 [Permalink]
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When I enlisted, I signed an agreement that I cannot sue the Navy or the US governmnet.
I go to a command sponsored weekly Bible Study because I find that information fascinating. Since it is a small command, they use other rates to be the Chaplain. When the previous Chaplain was about to leave, he asked me to relieve him! I told him that would be a bad idea, since I am not Christian. That makes me wonder: I have never made it a secret that I am not Christian, but people assume I am purely because I attend a Bible Study. Hm.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 12:55:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
No way Boron. Stick to your guns.
Back when I was still in the game, one of my duties was to provide PA. During the prayer part, (Gotta keep those military chaplins employed), I would simply sit quietly.
Yeah during DS I had to organize many religious events for Navy Relief, (course at time I was non practicing catholic), and I was expected to open my mouth first during some parts of the services, I went and found a religious friend who did that for me. No one said anything.
quote:
This lead me to wonder, "is it acceptable for my Commander In Chief to order me to pray?"
NO! This is unacceptable. He has to realize that not everyone follows his religious beliefs. I believe though a moment of *silence* to remember is a completely acceptable alternative.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Hey one zoomie, one jarhead and a squid what's up with this!?
Edited by - Trish on 06/06/2001 12:55:57 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 14:18:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
When I enlisted, I signed an agreement that I cannot sue the Navy or the US governmnet.
I go to a command sponsored weekly Bible Study because I find that information fascinating. Since it is a small command, they use other rates to be the Chaplain. When the previous Chaplain was about to leave, he asked me to relieve him! I told him that would be a bad idea, since I am not Christian. That makes me wonder: I have never made it a secret that I am not Christian, but people assume I am purely because I attend a Bible Study. Hm.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the suing. Sorry. I was more joking anyway.
What does this mean? " they use other rates to be the Chaplain." What is a 'rate'?
Life is full of people who assume. Now I just ignore them, not worth the time it takes to explain to them.
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sega
Skeptic Friend
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 15:00:30 [Permalink]
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If they forced you to speak the words, then it would be government mandated prayer. If you are merely present when it is done, you are not being mandated to do anything.
Making a big stink about this might be just great on the level of idealism, but it is really stupid in the larger scheme of things. I would not make my military career harder to endure over such a trivial matter.
When they mandate circumcision then yell.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 17:35:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
If they forced you to speak the words, then it would be government mandated prayer. If you are merely present when it is done, you are not being mandated to do anything.
Making a big stink about this might be just great on the level of idealism, but it is really stupid in the larger scheme of things. I would not make my military career harder to endure over such a trivial matter.
When they mandate circumcision then yell.
I disagree. If they don't know you don't like something they will go on doing it. If someone doesn't speak up nothing will change.
Small things can turn into big things. I say put a stop to it before it starts.
It's dishonest not to stand up for ones ideals. |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 18:28:18 [Permalink]
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Snake, on this issue, you are correct. But you still haven't answered my post over in "Suggestions".
You're right about how things can escalate. Can you imagine having to look at a plaque all day with the 10 commandment? There's folks in our dearly loved guvmint that think that would be a good thing. Schools and all federal buildings. And don't even get me started on Shrub's "Faith based" stuff! ARG!!!!
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 19:59:17 [Permalink]
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Years ago I was in an auditorium with my students and the students from other classes. Up came the "Pledge of Allegiance" which I had learned as a child. When they got to what used to be "...one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all," I nearly fell down laughing (although I stifled it completely) at the "under God" that the blithering idiots in Congress had slipped in there to force upon the rest of us, destroying the cadence completely." The effect upon me was complete astonishment at the new stupidity of which I had been previously unaware. (I try not to pay attention to the silliness in Congress -- too depressing.) Every time I come across an instant where I am in a situation like that, I have to do everything humanly possible not to laugh uncontrollably. For a "What's Thatter", it takes an inordinant amount of effort.
This all shows my age...
ljbrs
If you KNEW better, you'd DO better.
Edited by - ljbrs on 06/06/2001 20:31:08 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 20:44:53 [Permalink]
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If the 'under god' wasn't originally in there then we should be able to get it out again...'specially since there are those who don't ascribe to any particular god type diety. We after all have a 'constitutional' right to freedom of religion.
Glad I am now aware of that particular piece of history, thank you ljbrs.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 23:01:54 [Permalink]
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I, for one, did not say "under god" in my gradeschool pledge of allegiance. I merely stood there silent for a second, then finished with the rest of my class.
BTW, Snake, a "rate" in the Navy is the same as an MOS in the Marines (and probably the other services as well; we Squids have to do everything a little different), which is basically a specialty. It is what I was trained to do. Most commands have people who join the military purely to become Chaplains. Since my command is so small, the Navy cannot spare one of THOSE people to come here, so we give that job to others as a colateral duty.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 23:45:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
I, for one, did not say "under god" in my gradeschool pledge of allegiance. I merely stood there silent for a second, then finished with the rest of my class.
Boron, you are very young, no offence.  Back in my day(in the stone age) lol, people weren't as 'free' to be 'different'. Hence the 60's.
Maybe I'm wrong but, things don't seem as strict today. If you tell the teacher you didn't want to say god, she isn't allowed to do anything, I mean force you to. Way back when, they wouldn't have understood someone not being part of the crowd. The hatred of O'Hair shows that.
quote:
BTW, Snake, a "rate" in the Navy is the same as an MOS in the Marines (and probably the other services as well; we Squids have to do everything a little different), which is basically a specialty. It is what I was trained to do. Most commands have people who join the military purely to become Chaplains. Since my command is so small, the Navy cannot spare one of THOSE people to come here, so we give that job to others as a colateral duty.
Ah gees! Like I'm supposed to understand all THAT. LOL, that's the reason I don't watch the news, it's like hearing a foregin language. What's a MOS? That's ok, you'll probably just speak more non English, ha ha. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2001 : 00:17:39 [Permalink]
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MOS - Military Occupational Specialty
I was a 6313 in the Marines. In otherwords, Communication/Navigation/Identifcation Technician on the Grumman A-6E Intruder. Navy rate equivalent for me was AT Aviation Technician.
It's your specific job, civvy equivalent would be your job title.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2001 : 15:49:06 [Permalink]
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We used AFSC. Air Force Speciality Code. I was 304X4, later changed to 2E173. Ground Radio Communications Repair. Means I sat in little windowless rooms and soldered.
Well we've got us a Zoomie, Squids, and a Jarhead. Any former Army Grunts out there? Maybe we can get @tomic to open a folder so ex-military and sit around and bitch.
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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