|
|
|
Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
 Posted - 06/07/2001 : 17:27:49 [Permalink]
|
Yeah, Lisa we can sit and bitch and talk militarese. At least we'll understand.
Any way, got the POV and went to the PX today!
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
 |
|
|
Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2001 : 17:39:58 [Permalink]
|
quote:
If they forced you to speak the words, then it would be government mandated prayer. If you are merely present when it is done, you are not being mandated to do anything.
Sega, this is an ordered prayer forced men and women in uniform standing in formation. Unfortunately, you can't fall out to avoid the prayer. This is a regular occurance at many military functions. Though most of these prayers are non denominational.
When your standing in formation you have no choice but to be subjected to anothers beliefs. That goes against the freedom of religion that these men and women are fighting to uphold. This is a clear case of double standards. Civilians can believe what they want of religion but your in the military and you must listen to my religious views.
Semper Fidelis, generally followed by 'God, Country and Corps' thats the Marine motto. I always chose 'Country and Corps' as an alternative.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
|
|
|
Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2001 : 18:25:26 [Permalink]
|
And don't forget the dirty looks from the true believers when you don't bow your head. Followed by snotty, nosey, intrusive questions later. The military will eventually get themselves in trouble over this one. More and more of the people I meet are non-christian. Maybe it's because of my career field. It's technical, and seems to attract a lot of science wonks.
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
|
|
|
Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2001 : 18:38:11 [Permalink]
|
Yeah, I just wound up with all red-necks and fundies. Hey, the zeros were pretty cool about it though, the younger ones anyway.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
|
|
|
Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2001 : 19:06:34 [Permalink]
|
Whups! I think you slid some Jarhead slang in on me while I wasn't looking. What the heck is a "zero"?
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
|
|
|
sega
Skeptic Friend
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2001 : 19:43:33 [Permalink]
|
I guess I just have a thicker skin. Why does standing there force anothers beleifs on you? I understand that you do not beleive in religion, but military personnel simply do not have the same freedoms accorded to civilians. If the sole reason you were assembled was to pray, that is forced prayer, but if it is merely a part of some other activity, grin (or frown) and bear it. BTW did you get it stopped, are you trying? what are the repurcussions?
If you expect religious types to respect your beleifs, there must be some reciprocation, otherwise the powers that be will continue to steamroll you without any consideration of your rights.
Okay, I have my helmet on, fire at will.
|
|
|
|
ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2001 : 21:13:02 [Permalink]
|
I always feel free to be whatever I think is important to me. Otherwise, life would not be worth living. I am not in favor of turning atheism and agnosticism into religions for similar reasons.
==========
Trish - the first Pledge of Allegiance was much simpler than that, but I failed to write it down when I heard about it. I do not ever say (nor did I then say) the "under god" part (and I also refuse to capitalize the "g"). If people were forced to pray, there would be more atheists in this world. I am not an atheist. I am not religious. I simply am satisfied in finding out about the universe. So far I have not seen any reason for being religious, and I am not wasting any precious time searching for it.
ljbrs
If you KNEW better, you'd DO better.
|
|
|
|
Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2001 : 23:29:31 [Permalink]
|
quote:
What the heck is a "zero"?
An officer.
quote:
Why does standing there force anothers beleifs on you? I understand that you do not beleive in religion, but military personnel simply do not have the same freedoms accorded to civilians.
Because as a civilian I can walk away or enter into debate. But as a military member I have to stay there.
Its true we don't have the same freedoms. I had my room inspected every Friday. I couldn't take off for a weekend trip without permission. Those are *freedoms* I understood I gave up when entering the military. However, having a chaplain standing over you praying for you or whatever, that's different. I didn't give up my freedom of thought. You are subjected to anothers religious views without the options of walking away or debating the subject. You have to stand there and bow your head. That's usually an order from a colonel or some such similar rank at many formations. 'Now let's bow our heads for the invocation.'
If I walk into a church, yeah I respect that as their place of worship. But out on the grinder, no, it's not a place of worship, it's the place where the platoon forms and practices drill. I have to be there, I am ordered there and then I am subjected to their views on religion. They never told me how to vote. Why must they subject everyone to a specific religion or religious viewpoint? I never once saw a rabbi lead the prayers either, they were always xian chaplains. Usually starting with, 'In Christs name we pray...'
quote:
If people were forced to pray, there would be more atheists in this world. I am not an atheist. I am not religious. I simply am satisfied in finding out about the universe. So far I have not seen any reason for being religious, and I am not wasting any precious time searching for it.
I would feel fortunate to shed the trappings xianity still has on me. Everyday I seem to leave them further behind but a life time of indoctrination has left a mark. Though I questioned a lot of the things I was taught about xianity as a child I never gave up the belief in this all-knowing, all-loving god. Later, I decided I needed some answers to questions that had bothered me, so I went in search of those answers. At first, I was terribly frightened of leaving the comfortable gilded cage of xianity behind. Eventually I was able to make the break.
But in Boron10s original post the President mandated that it be a 'Day of Prayer'. The particular semantics here imply that yes they are forcing you to pray.
The President is still the CIC and his mandates are orders. Yes, this was ordered prayer and it should be considered as forced prayer. A better option would to have asked for a day of reflection on past sacrifices of our men and women in uniform, a 'Day of Reflection'. I know this is just semantics, but if you were asked, 'Did you pray?' and you respond no, are you disobeying a direct order? It would seem so.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
|
|
|
Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2001 : 02:00:30 [Permalink]
|
The term "zero" is used for officers because their paygrades start with an "O," e.g. O-3 is a Navy Leiutenant (anybody else's Captain), or O-6 is a Navy Captain (anybody else's Colonel). The "grinder" is a place a platoon or company will go to drill, or PT, or various other military exercises.
I am an Electronics Technician, training to become a zero (too young to be a mustang, but close). I must admit, I do bow my head out of respect for my chain of command (it would not be appropriate for only one member of the Color Guard to not do so).
|
|
|
|
Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2001 : 10:36:38 [Permalink]
|
quote:
The term "zero" is used for officers because their paygrades start with an "O," e.g. O-3 is a Navy Leiutenant (anybody else's Captain), or O-6 is a Navy Captain (anybody else's Colonel). The "grinder" is a place a platoon or company will go to drill, or PT, or various other military exercises.
Yeah, well there were other reasons too.
As for the grinder, the marines generally also praticed EMI extra military instructions. ie, FALL OUT - TO SLOW GET BACK from the DI, (Drill Instructor).
Mustang is just an officer who started out enlisted. Those officers aren't zeros.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2001 : 11:48:51 [Permalink]
|
quote:
If people were forced to pray, there would be more atheists in this world.
I think that you are right. People are forced to pray becauce of social pressure. Hell if you look in Webster's unabridged you'll find one of the definition of the word Atheist is "evil".
Yet the Xians on this site constantly make the distinction between "Real Christians" and people who only say they are. The implication is that these ersatz Christians make up a fair percentage of church goers.
People are forced to pray, and I think this implies that there actually are 'more Atheists in this world' than present counts (11% of the USA is Atheist/Agnostic) would indicate. They are just trying to "pass" for their own safety.
When the dead talk -- they talk to him |
|
|
|
@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2001 : 12:06:59 [Permalink]
|
quote:
People are forced to pray, and I think this implies that there actually are 'more Atheists in this world' than present counts (11% of the USA is Atheist/Agnostic) would indicate. They are just trying to "pass" for their own safety.
This does not seem unreasonable. Consider the actual numbers of people that attend church. These numbers are nowhere near the numbers of people that profess a belief in the Christian god.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
|
|
|
ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2001 : 20:36:29 [Permalink]
|
There is a listing of the various religious denominations of the world in both the World Almanac and the Information Please Almanac. The lists in these books include the major religions and their sub-groups, and additionally list non-believers, atheists, agnostics. The non-believers make up a huge group if all non-religious beliefs are combined under one category. It helps to know that one is not completely alone. However, I believe that all, or most, of the non-believers are quite indivual in their beliefs.
Now to find that Tibetan prayer wheel for the easy way to worship. Just twirl it around, and the prayers written inside the device (in Tibetan) will do all of the praying for you. In Tibet, of course, these prayer wheels are huge and much more difficult to turn.
I believe in treating most religious people courteously. As long as they do not force their beliefs on me, I can abide by that.
Back to that prayer wheel -- in the closet, I believe. Found! Oh joy, oh rapture!
ljbrs
If you knew better, you'd do better!
|
|
|
|
@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2001 : 22:33:45 [Permalink]
|
This is the 21st century, attach an electric motor to the prayer wheel and some solar cells and you can go do whatever safe in the knowledge that your praying is being taken care of.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
|
|
|
James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2001 : 23:08:54 [Permalink]
|
quote:
This is the 21st century, attach an electric motor to the prayer wheel and some solar cells and you can go do whatever safe in the knowledge that your praying is being taken care of.
LOL Perfect!
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try." -Master Yoda |
|
|
 |
|
Topic Locked
