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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 02/25/2002 : 17:16:01 [Permalink]
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I asked Ed about the canine security, and he bought up something I really hadn't thought about. All dogs are not created equal. There's a dog at our base in Qatar that he swears has to be the sharpest dog the military has. Learns at light speed and can identify just about every explosive compound known. Unfortunately there's another dog that is to the far left side on the bell curve, if you know what I mean.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2002 : 01:39:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
if we keep moving toward private security in our airports, we'll probably end up paying a terrible price. I recall a recent event where the media picked up on an airport security guard sound asleep on the job, and then made a major issue of it.
I do not propose that all security guards are lax on the job, but it only takes one, and from the number I see asleep at the gates of nearby chemical plants, this one would not be hard to find. Besides, what's a private security guard going to do with a terrorist--Pray him to death?
One argument against govenment guards is, trying to get rid of bad ones. Once you've got a govenment job isn't it more difficult to get fired?
And give me a break......look at what you are saying, the media!!!! major issue!!! Well Duh! If and when the govenment gets it's head out of it's ass and figures out what they aren't doing..... let's just say this, if guards or people in any job got paid what they are worth we wouldn't have the social problems we do now. We'd save money on taxs(paying people who DON'T do a good job) and be able to hire AND fire the right people and get things done better.
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Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2002 : 01:55:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
I asked Ed about the canine security, and he bought up something I really hadn't thought about. All dogs are not created equal. There's a dog at our base in Qatar that he swears has to be the sharpest dog the military has. Learns at light speed and can identify just about every explosive compound known. Unfortunately there's another dog that is to the far left side on the bell curve, if you know what I mean.
Lisa
Lisa it's the breed NOT the individual dog. Of course there are individuals that are on a curve too but it's the breed that is better at one thing or another.
I have to say I'm not an expert nor have I studied in deepth the subject but on my Cocker E-group there's a wide range of knowledge among the members and I can ask them for further info.
Bloodhounds have the best noses because they are breed for those qualities. Cockers, like Woody, love to run because they are breed to flush out game. My previous dog, a German Shepherd mix could follow a ball into the bushes and go right to it even after loosing sight of it. Woody couldn't follow it if it was covered in gravey but he's much more intelligent in other ways then most other breeds.
Also, the dogs that follow scents are trained to react to certain ones only. So Ed is right, not all dogs are the same.
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Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.
Edited by - snake on 02/26/2002 02:07:48 |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2002 : 11:49:01 [Permalink]
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Some links to short articles on bomb-sniffing dogs. Note the discrepancies between costs to train and maintain the dogs:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/bomb_dogs020112.html
http://www.modbee.com/life/Travel/story/1497510p-1574256c.html
http://www.modbee.com/life/Travel/story/1497510p-1574256c.html
And a quick overview of some mechanical explosive detection devices, from a catalog:
http://www.airport-technology.com/contractors/security/thermo/
This is from a Jane's study of security at US airports in November of 99:
http://www.janes.com/transport/news/misc/991109.shtml
Here's a blurb from it:
quote:
The fact that a test explosive device can be passed through high tech security systems which correctly identify it as a threat but operators ignore the data presented to them through lack of skill is an appalling state of affairs. Of equal concern is the ease with which the supposedly secure perimeter of an airport can be penetrated and aircraft boarded and possibly interfered with. This underscores the need for a wholesale rethink of how the United States, its airports and its air carriers go about the business of securing the aviation system against a terrorist attack,” concludes Yates.
And a white paper from the Security Industry of America in 2000:
http://www.siaonline.org/page.asp?c=wp_air_security
Here are some bits from it:
quote:
This year, the White House Commission on Aviation Safety and Security examined the existing situation and developed recommendations for improvement. Proposals include: airport vulnerability assessments and action plans; background checks of airline workers; baggage passenger match; a system to profile and track passengers with suspicious traveling patterns; purchase of trace detectors to detect explosive devices; provide explosive detection training for agencies and personnel involved in air travel and testing existing security systems. However, these recommendations will have little impact if the FAA does not pass regulations to support them.....
A variety of new technologies has been developed to detect bombs. The only FAA certified bomb detection system, which uses CAT Scan technology, is very costly. Other scanning technologies include trace detection devices and Quadruple Resonance Analysis which combines MRI and X-ray methods to check for plastic explosives, metals and other materials. One drawback of these systems is their high cost and inability to process passengers quickly. These modern detection methods are being used in the United Kingdom and in a few U.S. airports.
Another new technology is vapor sensing systems. These systems, are more sensitive and quicker than most detection systems and can be used to uncover narcotics and explosives. This type of system is being used in several airports in the UK.
The personnel operating the equipment are also under scrutiny. Lack of proper training is another problem that compounds the issue of airport security. Most of the employees who operate bag screening systems are contracted security guards hired by the airline or airport. These guards receive minimal training. Most earn under $10 an hour which contributes to the high turnover rate.
My kids still love me. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2002 : 13:27:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Some links to short articles on bomb-sniffing dogs. Note the discrepancies between costs to train and maintain the dogs
Someone's been doing his homework!
With this quote from one of those links,
"It costs the FAA about $40,000 per dog per year to run the "K-9 units." Those costs, Trexler said, include food and veterinary care." And from the other story that said it costs $15,000 to train a dog, IMO if that's what the government said then in reality it probably costs only $10,000 and $7,000 respectivly.
For example, we buy Woody a fairy high class food, $40 a bag, he's a small dog so the bag lasts about 1 1/2 to 2 months. Ok, let's say the larger dog uses 3 times as much, that's still less then $1,500 a year for food (if my math is right!). The vet we go to is, average cost (shots and the occasional infection, etc.), maybe $500 a year. I buy his toys, he has one ball he likes anyway, but I buy them at the 99 cent store, that ball lasts for several months. Where the hell do they get $40,000? Woody would live in a mansion for that much.
If they are including the cost of the handler/owner, then that's not a very big salery, is it?
As far as the veterinary care, someone should tell them they can buy medical ins. just like for humans. A bit expensive but perhaps worth checking into. I wish the government would learn to be more economical.
Who's going to join me in writing to their congressman and suggest comparing prices for training and other ways to lower the cost for that dog bomb project?
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Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2002 : 13:34:58 [Permalink]
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I agree mostly, Snake, but (and I think this was mentioned in one of the articles, or maybe I'm remembering it from elsewhere) most sniffing dogs (bomb, drug, or blood) need a weekly check-up and sometimes medication. And their diet will be more sensitive than the average pooch. Have to be careful of allergic reactions and foods with smells that mask the senses.
My kids still love me. |
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DVF
Skeptic Friend
USA
96 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2002 : 15:26:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
For example, we buy Woody a fairy high class food, $40 a bag, he's a small dog so the bag lasts about 1 1/2 to 2 months. Ok, let's say the larger dog uses 3 times as much, that's still less then $1,500 a year for food (if my math is right!). The vet we go to is, average cost (shots and the occasional infection, etc.), maybe $500 a year. I buy his toys, he has one ball he likes anyway, but I buy them at the 99 cent store, that ball lasts for several months. Where the hell do they get $40,000?
I assume woody lives with you and you don't expect to be paid for spending time with him. I also assume that the bomb dogs require special handlers, who want to be paid, housing of some type, which must be maintained by people who want to be paid, worked regularly to maintain there skills by people who want to be paid and taken to the vet by still more people who want to be paid. I would also assume that the fewer people these duties get divided amoung, the more each will want to be paid. It may also cost only $7000 or $8000 to train an animal, but then the company that trains them is going to want to show a profit on that investment.
I'm strictly guessing here, but I can see how the 40k figure might be real. It's the difference between what it costs you to feed and take care of your dog, and what it would cost you to have someone else come over to your house every day and feed, groom and train your dog.
Um... Is that my beer? |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2002 : 02:19:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
I assume woody lives with you and you don't expect to be paid for spending time with him
I think I know what you are trying to say but it doesn't quite make sense.
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Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2002 : 02:39:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
I agree mostly, Snake, but (and I think this was mentioned in one of the articles, or maybe I'm remembering it from elsewhere) most sniffing dogs (bomb, drug, or blood) need a weekly check-up and sometimes medication. And their diet will be more sensitive than the average pooch. Have to be careful of allergic reactions and foods with smells that mask the senses.
Well, I'm not an expert so I can't argue with you. It does sound a little far fetched to need to go to a vet that often. As for diet, LOL, trust me....I've heard everything there is to know about what to feed and what not to feed a dog, from the egroups I'm on. Those people are nuts when it comes to pampering their 'kids'. It's not that expensive to feed them a proper diet. Of course everything is relative, you can buy a cheap bag of food for $5 or pay top price, around $50 or do the BARF diet, which is all natural (for those concerned about allergies) but nothing I know of justifies thousands of dollars.
I'd like to know where it says they need to be checked. If so, why wouldn't the one who is the dogs partner be taught some test to see if the dog can still smell.
My main point was that if the $40,000 was just for the dog, it's too much and if it encluded the partner/'owner'/handler, whoever, then it didn't seem like enough(for a salaried job-considering $40,000 is almost starting pay for a police officer). I'd like to see a break down of the costs. I do bet that the government IS paying too much or could find a way to cut the costs.
NO MORE $400 (or was it $700) toilet seats!!!!! |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2002 : 10:08:36 [Permalink]
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http://www.snopes2.com/
"On 11 January 2002, retired Marine Corps Gen. Joseph J. Foss of Scottsdale, Arizona, was attempting to board an America West flight bound for Arlington, Virginia, when airport security held him for 45 minutes while they debated what to do with a variety of suspect items he had about his person. This 86-year-old former governor of South Dakota was on his way to attend a National Rifle Association meeting and to speak to cadets at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, and he carried with him his Congressional Medal of Honor, as well as a Medal of Honor commemorative nail file and a dummy bullet which had been made into a key fob.
Each of these items was regarded as a potential security risk by airport personnel: the bullet for being a bullet, the nail file for being a nail file (metal nail files are now banned on flights in the USA), and the Medal of Honor for being a suspicious five-pointed metal object that might have been a weapon (similar to the Japanese throwing discs known hira shuriken).
After being repeatedly searched, Foss was allowed to board the plane with his Medal of Honor, but he had to mail the bullet and nail file home to himself. Foss' experience prompted the piece quoted above, which is the text of a Bob Greene article from the 24 February 2002 Chicago Tribune.
Several columnists have since used this incident as the centerpiece of newspaper articles about the issues surrounding heightened air travel standards since September 11 because it highlights the problems inherent to new airport security measures. Where does a reasonable standard of protection leave off and lunacy begin? Granted, if bullets are on the banned list then passengers shouldn't attempt to bring them onboard, but should bullets which have been drilled and turned into key charms -- ornamental objects which clearly pose no threat to anyone -- be treated as if they were "real" bullets? And should a Medal of Honor -- the country's highest award for bravery -- even fleetingly be considered a possible threat to the safety of others?
We shouldn't fault airport security officers for not recognizing a Medal of Honor on sight; not many people get to see one in their lives. But a closer examination by security personnel would have shown them what it was, and at that point in the proceedings they fell down on the job. Rather than treating an obviously cooperative passenger courteously and allowing him to explain what the suspect item was, they shuffled the general back and forth and required him to remove his boots, belt, hat, and tie -- several times each. The delay they subjected him to almost caused him to miss his flight. That is no way to treat any 86-year-old man, let alone a war hero and former governor.
Had the situation been handled professionally, the general would have cleared the security checkpoint in all of five minutes, with most of that taken up by the manual search his pacemaker necessitated. Yes, his nail file and key-ring charm would have been taken from him because both these items are on the list of things one must not bring onto a plane. But the Medal of Honor should have been quickly vetted and returned to its owner, and its owner should have been treated respectfully throughout.
Then again, if this were a perfect world, nobody would have let me into it.
Barbara "perfect alibi" Mikkelson"
(I think this is a fine example of what I was bitching about. I have nothing against heightened security. Sheer idiocy frosts me a little)
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2002 : 17:27:19 [Permalink]
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We may never see a Medal of Honor with our own eyes, but I somehow think that one would be recognizable to someone with two brain cells firing.
Anyway, spoke with a friend who's a pilot, bit ridiculous with the nail file too, since you can go through security and then purchase a metal nail file to replace the one taken by security. Seems no one has yet found the problem with this concept.
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
<i>No Sense of Obligation</i> by Matt Young |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2002 : 18:19:30 [Permalink]
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[quote]
http://www.snopes2.com/
"On 11 January 2002, retired Marine Corps Gen. Joseph J. Foss[/quote]...
The incident you described with the General sounds like an extreme example of people acting almost as "automatons…" acting in a completely procedural way, even when common(?) sense suggests a few simple questions could have resolved the matter with minimal inconvenience. Except that it involves serious issues and the kind of inappropriate, discourteous treatment one hates to see, it's almost humorous, in a way- because on one hand, it sounds like, understandably, security managers pounded the importance of staying alert and following procedures into these people, in light of recent outrage at sleeping or zombie-like security guards, and the result was people afraid to exercise any more independent judgement than the chip in my Casio watch has embedded into it (it's an $11 model.)
Ron White |
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Stygma
New Member
36 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2002 : 17:34:22 [Permalink]
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Last year, on my annual flight to Utah, I was subconciously walking through the airport when security stopped me because of my keychain. It had a quarter-sized squirt-gun on it, one I was planning to empty on one certain family member. They 'confiscated' it, which I guess is a euphemism for trashing, and proceeded to search me quite thoroughly. When I asked about the supposed danger of the world's smallest supersoakers, one said (in a rather patronizing way), "Obviously, this is a facsimile of a what?" Of course, I filled in the blank and that seemed to prove his point.
I can see how that is simply conforming to rules, but honestly..
If you ever fall off the Sears Tower, just go limp, because people might think you're a dummy and try and catch you because, hey, free dummy. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2002 : 01:42:53 [Permalink]
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[quote]
Last year, on my annual flight to Utah, I was subconciously walking through the airport when security stopped me because of my keychain. It had a quarter-sized squirt-gun on it, one I was planning to empty on one certain family member. They 'confiscated' it, which I guess is a euphemism for trashing, and proceeded to search me quite thoroughly. When I asked about the supposed danger of the world's smallest supersoakers, one said (in a rather patronizing way), "Obviously, this is a facsimile of a what?" Of course, I filled in the blank and that seemed to prove his point.
I can see how that is simply conforming to rules, but honestly..[/quote]
And there you have it, the reason I won't fly now, not on a plane that is.
Boy! When I think of all the things I did all the times I flew in the past. I used to dress up as a spy, long gray/brown trench coat, I really did carry a squirt gun in the brest pocket. Once I took a tire gauge with me to pretend it was a secret communication divice. I don't think they'd understand these days. The Fools!
Speaking of keychains, a few years ago while going to jury duty and passing through the metal detector, I had a keychain that was a giant safty pin. It is fist sized. It could open with some strength applied but the point was so wide it couldn't stick anything. My car, house and other keys were on it but they said I couldn't go in with it. Talk about over reacting!
[quote]
If you ever fall off the Sears Tower, just go limp, because people might think you're a dummy and try and catch you because, hey, free dummy.
[/quote]
ROFLOL
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If you take an Oriental person and spin him around several times, does he become disoriented?
George Carlin
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I'd do that at home with the one I live with to see what happens but he's too confussed already.
Snake
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