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Kaneda Kuonji
Skeptic Friend
USA
138 Posts |
 Posted - 03/01/2002 : 12:02:57
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I have taken a look into religion and came to one conclusion:
Some people take religion way too seriously. In moderation, religion is a good thing in that it is a code of conduct.
Go too far, IE: "My religion is the only right one, so everyone else must be wrong, and I will convert them no matter what the cost" and that is when it all hits the fan.
Need examples? Try Hovind or Robertson, or the Al Qaeda. Those are examples of when people take religion too damned seriously.
Don't even get me started on the Inquisition.
Rodney Dean, CI Order of the Knights of Jubal
Ivbalis.org
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2002 : 13:08:18 [Permalink]
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[quote]
In moderation, religion is a good thing in that it is a code of conduct.
[/quote]
Religion is not a code of conduct.
A code of conduct is a philosophy.
Occasionally a religion like Christianity will impose it's own philosophy on it's followers but that is seperate from the religion.
Religion contains no benificial aspects that are not available without religion.
Even in moderation religion is by definition exclusionary and therefore a "bad" thing. Example: the Latter Day Saints and all the sorrow they've brought to Polynesia.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
[i]The Preparation of the Gospel[/i] |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2002 : 14:05:44 [Permalink]
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[quote]
Example: the Latter Day Saints and all the sorrow they've brought to Polynesia.[/quote]
Could you elaborate, or point me in a direction for more info, please?
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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DVF
Skeptic Friend
USA
96 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2002 : 14:17:03 [Permalink]
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Religions often contain codes of conduct, but that doesn't define the religion. Within any given religion you usually find some pretty good real world advice, such as don't kill each other, mixed with some useless superstitions, like not eating meat on fridays or cutting off part of your penis as part of a deal with god. Son of a bitch never heard of a handshake I guess.
You tend to see the useful stuff, like not killing, stealing, screwing your sister, etc. replicated throughout most different religions and in secular codes of law or morality. It's the man in the sky mumbo jumbo that defines the religions. Now, I wouldn't say that religion never had a positive effect. At one point in time a powerful tool for uniting and galvanizing a society might have been crucial in the unity of a group and the transition from wandering inbred tribes into stable agricultural civilizations. At this point though, I think it's time to move on. These days it's used mostly to justify bad behavior, excuse injustice or pacify the ignorant.
The wages of sin is death, but the hours are good. |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2002 : 20:47:13 [Permalink]
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I think, that the usefulness and the need for religion in our world is far from over.
Some of us might be perfectly content to live in a world without objective good or evil, without higher justice, without a greater reason for existance without something that sets us apart from everyone else and makes us feel like we are something better.
But those that feel that way are in a minority. People need to belive.
The moral code attached to some religion is only a small and rather unimportant part of that. It gives people an illusion of absolute right and wrong, and a reason to feel like they are something better then those who do not follow their moral code.
In my opinion doing something right for the wrong reasons is always worse then doing something wrong for the right reasons.
Following some moral code out of fear from punishment or in hope of reward by a higher power is in my eyes horrible. Doing something because you were told to do it not because you came to the conclusion that it needed doing youself is despisable. People who are just following orders from somebody who they know can't be wrong, have in my opinion given up all right to be called human.
But that is just my opinion. The rest of the world appears to be in need of such 'guidiance'. So Religion is hear to stay and any attempt of ours to do away with it, will just replace it with something that only differs from religion in not being called so.
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Kaneda Kuonji
Skeptic Friend
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2002 : 00:05:43 [Permalink]
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So, what you're saying is that as long there are a lot of people who can't think for themselves, there will be a need for religion?
Makes sense. Ticks me off, but makes sense. I remember a saying someone showed me:
"The truth shall set you free, but first it's gonna piss you off."
Sounds like my reaction to my agnosticism at first.
Rodney Dean, CI Order of the Knights of Jubal
Ivbalis.org
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2002 : 10:40:18 [Permalink]
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The truth will not set you free; it will only tell you why they locked you up.
I think that the reason religon will always be among us is simply that we must always have something to look forward to. How can there be an existance that does not include the wonderful, unique and irreplacable Me?
Therefore, virtually all religons promise an afterlife. If you are a faithful servant and pray your knees bloody, you will be rewarded with... whatever (I like the one that promises lots of virgins, rather than harp music and more praying).
Codes of conduct ultimatly come from a society, not a belief system and therefore are ultimatly concieved by individuals. This is not confined to our species. Consider the moral and ethical codes of a wolf or hyena pack, or a pride of lions. Their codes of conduct are fully as ridged as any of ours, although perhaps not as complicated (or as loud and confusing).
A belief in the supernatural is not necessary for us to have a moral and ethical society. As we tend to be pack animals, we'd impose one instinctivly. As we have, for better or worse.
Religon is not necessary and never has been, but it helps some us to get through the day.
f
"Don't tell me your doubts; I've got enough doubts of my own. Tell me something you BELIEVE in!"
Brother Dave Gardner |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2002 : 23:06:06 [Permalink]
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Kaneda, you are so correct. They take stuff too seriously. I really don't care what they, or anyone else believes. The depth and width of my unconcern is enormous.
However, I get a little frosted when they try to pass laws and insist I believe in their nonsense. They want to take my tax money to teach children that fairy tales are real.
And filthy, yeah, maybe they do need something to look forward to. They don't have the drive or imagination to realize there's always something to look forward to in life. If life is getting dull I [i]make[/i] something worth anticipating. Doesn't matter if its a vacation, seeing friends, or walking the dog. (Side note: new Harley gets here in 30 days)
Point is, life is a real kick. Worrying about what a fictional sky fairy thinks of you isn't going to make a difference, we all had a one-way ticket punched when we were born.
I like what Heinlein said: moderation is for monks.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Kaneda Kuonji
Skeptic Friend
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2002 : 23:19:33 [Permalink]
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The way I see it, life is to be enjoyed to the best of your ability. There'll be hard times, and yet there is good in it too. If I die knowing I enjoyed life, then I'll die happy.
Maybe the religious fanatice need to pull their heads from the ground and look at the world they are missing. Maybe I'll respect them then.
There is a quote I really like:
"We may rise and fall/but in the end/we meet our fate together."
Creed, "One"
Rodney Dean, CI Order of the Knights of Jubal
Ivbalis.org
Edited by - Kaneda Kuonji on 03/02/2002 23:24:13 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2002 : 05:07:09 [Permalink]
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BOO-YAH!! New Harley!
The other day, I fragged the rear cylinder in the '46. Why does this sort of thing never happen when it's sitting still in the shed? Ah well. I now have the joy of yet another re-build. Got 2 new cylinders coming.
"Death is the only promise kept by life." Richard ben Sapir 'The Far Arena'.
That means that this is it, folks. You can warm up a pew while listening to someone with his mind in a strait-jacket, or you can get out there and live.
Now, as an agnostic, I can't entirely rule out the existance of some sort of supreme being. But if such does exist, it seems highly unlikely that the beast would have the inclination to sort through a kajillion souls trying to pick out the few that BELIEVE.
Common sense tells me that the Universe is much too grand to have been concieved by a mere all-powerful deity.
And I'm expected buy the writings of a few superstitious, wandering preachers of 2000 years ago? Writings revised and edited by later preachers to suit their own ends? Not very damned likely, I will! Yet, many prople's lives revolves around nothing but their faith. Well, ok. If that's what floats their boats, have at it, sez I. But please stop trying to lay it on me.
I do not have enough life left to waste any on religon.
f
"Don't tell me your doubts; I've got enough doubts of my own. Tell me something you BELIEVE in!"
Brother Dave Gardner |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2002 : 06:53:27 [Permalink]
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Sure, some of their messages undeniably have merit (do unto others, don't seduce your neighbor's wife, etc.) and they promote some good principles (family and community unity) but I still have a hard time going as far as to say "It's a good thing in moderation," with pretty good reason (I think.)
Every analog of the major religions (e.g. Muslim, Christianity, etc.) that I'm aware of doesn't offer such a disclaimer ("Here's our deal- take it as seriously as suits you") but rather at minimum insist- and usually demand- that you take every aspect of their particular package totally seriously- with unquestioning belief- and on blind faith, at that. And much of the writings from which their ideas evolve are vague and ambiguous enough to be subject to a wealth of interpretation, especially as they apply to a vastly different world, with complexities unimagined by their very human authors. Worse yet, most doing the interpreting these days clearly aren't divinely inspired, if for no other reason than they contradict each other with disturbing regularity.
If I were a Fundamentalist Christian or some variation, for instance, and wished to raise my children as such so they might benefit from the positive, I'd have to sort out the sensible from the bunk for my 9-year-old son (violence to stop abortion as having any justification, why we should hate homosexuals, why blood transfusions are evil, birth control is wrong even if one can't afford children, etc. etc.) Similarly, were I Muslim, I'd have to explain why the Jews are really just people like we are, when the Faith dictates they're at best an inferior and rather malicious bunch, and at worst the very personification of Evil itself. Worse yet, I'd have to explain why all of these appendages are necessary when the church demands absolute faith. Worst of all, with the glories awaiting after death, why go to such lengths to avoid it, and why all the grieving?
Too many contradictions. Too much nonsense. I'd rather surround the kid with a decent group of people where the unfiltered load isn't rammed down his throat. I think most people understand what's clearly right from wrong, and I'm suspicious of those who claim to know better than the rest of us about those gray areas.
Ron White |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2002 : 17:11:21 [Permalink]
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[quote]
Sure, some of their messages undeniably have merit (do unto others, don't seduce your neighbor's wife, etc.) and they promote some good principles (family and community unity) but I still have a hard time going as far as to say "It's a good thing in moderation," with pretty good reason (I think.)
[/quote]
Not only are the 'good things' those religions are promoting selfevident and obvious without the need of revalation of cosmic truth from above. If you need a deity to tell you that killing and stealing is wrong, then you have a problem.
You can go to tribe of newly discovered natives, that never heared of christianity and will be suprised that if they have any sense of personal propertiy they also have rules against stealing. They will be aware that killing at least their own people is wrong. And have a wealth of other ethics and morals that christians think came from the bible.
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2002 : 18:19:40 [Permalink]
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[quote]
You can go to tribe of newly discovered natives, that never heared of christianity and will be suprised that if they have any sense of personal propertiy they also have rules against stealing. They will be aware that killing at least their own people is wrong. And have a wealth of other ethics and morals that christians think came from the bible.
[/quote]
Good point Lars.
Wonder too, just how many of these native's groups, cultures, entire civilizations have been wiped out by marauding xtians?
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2002 : 23:08:13 [Permalink]
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Wonder too, just how many of these native's groups, cultures, entire civilizations have been wiped out by marauding xtians?
It's pretty clear that Christ was a pacifist, and the questions of justification of violence (when? how much?) present the fuzziest of areas. There seem no iron-clad rules, and what usually seems to happen is that decisions are made, and rationalizations concocted. That's a job I don't envy.
[/quote]
Ron White |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 00:13:47 [Permalink]
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[quote]
It's pretty clear that Christ was a pacifist ...
[/quote]
Clear?
We have a threat going on in this forum where a pretty good argument is made that Jesus Christ was not at all.
Even if you belive that everything in the new testament is 100% true I don't see a good case for a pacifist Jesus. Yes he said something about some other cheek, but he said a lot of other stuff to. Some of it is rather violent and cruel.
Yes if you only read small parts of the NT and ignored others and interpreted the results a bit, you could get a Jesus that advocats pacifism. By the same process using other filters you could also arrive at anything else.
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 00:59:36 [Permalink]
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By the same process using other filters you could also arrive at anything else.
You're right. The Bible, especially the alleged words of Christ, is so absurdly full of contradictions that the mess could be construed to say damn near anything. It's a curious mishmash of psychosexual/psychosocial and Freudian/ego driven appeals to our human nature. At least that's how I see it. If it were consistant enough to have a set of fairly clear messages, I doubt it would have been so popular for so long. It wouldn't make it through the logical meat grinder in one piece. There's something about the poetic and ambiguous nature of it that makes it interpretable in ways to suit anyone and everyone, with a little imagination. One would be hard pressed to come up with such a clever marketing job is how I see it. Coversely, believers would probably say it's the Bible's inherent brilliance, attributable only to a higher power, that's given it enduring popularity. The only thing I know with certainty about Christ, or the author(s) who created him (should that be the case) is that they had a helluva sales angle.
Ron White |
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