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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
 Posted - 07/29/2002 : 09:16:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
That's too bad. It pains me to hear it. I hope that someday you too can be saved.
Sorry, but I've had that etiquetteless sentiment thrown at me so many times that I thought I'd toss it back and see if it were taken with the good will Xians insist they have when they say it.
My apologies if you were referring to someone else.
I would take it with good will if you meant it sincerly and not as a cynical or self-righteous pronouncement.
Believe it or not, some Christians are sincere when they express such a sentiment. After all, we wouldn't want to be deprived of your company in heaven.<icon_mi_4.gif>
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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Bradley
Skeptic Friend
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2002 : 11:21:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
I never questioned my faith
What, never? Disturbing.
"Too much doubt is better than too much credulity."
-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833 - 1899) |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2002 : 12:37:55 [Permalink]
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I would take it with good will if you meant it sincerly and not as a cynical or self-righteous pronouncement.
It truly does pain me to see people who are willing prisoners of superstition. I am somewhat of a Humanist and am therefore distressed by the dehumanizing aspects of religion.
Believe it or not, some Christians are sincere when they express such a sentiment.
So I have heard. But these sincere Christians must be rare birds indeed as I've never seen one.
After all, we wouldn't want to be deprived of your company in heaven.
I'm going to burn in Hell, in other words?
Yep, very rare birds, I still haven't seen one.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2002 : 13:24:40 [Permalink]
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Are you a real Christian? Please sell everything you own and send me all the money that you have.
Thanks.
Give to everyone that asketh thee; and from him that taketh away thy goods ask not again
Luke 6:30
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2002 : 14:54:25 [Permalink]
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I grew up in New England. Despite my proximity to Salem, MA. It was a very catholic (mostly french speaking) dominated area. I got put in catholic school in grade 5 because I was a terror in public school.
My folks went to mass on xmas eve maybe every other year, so they were not even remotely serious about religion. I was in that school as a punishment.
To get into trouble I started bringing in the religious texts of every other religion I could find. For people who want you to believe in a big ghost in the sky, catholics are very narrow minded about other religions. Tolerance wasn't a virtue.
I learned alot about other religions during that time. I came to the conclusion that they are all bunk. Medieval superstition at best, an excuse for genocide more often than not.
I arrived at the following:
Man creates god (or gods) in his image, not the other way around. Therefore who better to be god than you? Originally I voted Ted Nugent for god, but he was busy with the NRA.
So there's my religion: Sollyism
It's only commandment: Be your own god
BTW, it took me 4 1/2 years to finally be expelled from that prison camp. Despite weekly trips to church (we got out of class for mass) and forced confession, etc. I never once bought the story. I told a priest that if I was going to buy into any religion, I'd go with the old Norse ways. At least their gods kicked ass and didn't go timidly to thier deaths like Jesus. Boring!
Be your own god!
(First, and only, commandment of Sollyism)
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2002 : 19:39:23 [Permalink]
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I never have been religious. My family tried, without success. I never believed in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, etc. I believe that whatever exists, exists. If what somebody else believes is the same, then we both somewhat agree. I think that, if there were a deity, then it would be sacrilegious for me to make religion all up in my own head or let somebody else (other than the true (?) deity himself, herself, itself) push his, her, its beliefs upon me. Anybody who attempts to proselytize me about their belief(s) gets a good dosage of my unadulterated thoughts. Otherwise, I am *live and let live* as far as the beliefs of others are concerned. People without belief tend to have fewer children. Therefore, non-believers most likely will lose out in the end, because the believers will overpopulate the Earth with their progeny.
ljbrs 
"Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error." Goethe |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2002 : 02:04:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
So there's my religion: Sollyism
It's only commandment: Be your own god
I came up with something similar several years ago; called it Timotheism. It's good to meet a fellow follower, eh?
-me. |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2002 : 07:19:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
It truly does pain me to see people who are willing prisoners of superstition. I am somewhat of a Humanist and am therefore distressed by the dehumanizing aspects of religion.
Interesting, since Humanism was started by Christian scholars trying to come up with a new way of interpreting man's relationship to God.
As for superstition, something is superstition only as long as you do not understand it. If you could feel God in your life as I have felt Him, you would discover that my belief is not superstitious at all.
quote:
So I have heard. But these sincere Christians must be rare birds indeed as I've never seen one.
Then you've met your first, for I am one. The only difference is I can recognize when someone like you would be insulted by my sincerity, so rather than cause you personal pain I just pray for you in secret.
quote:
quote:
After all, we wouldn't want to be deprived of your company in heaven.
I'm going to burn in Hell, in other words?
Yep, very rare birds, I still haven't seen one.
I said that last sentence facitiously; I tried to implant one of those face icons in the message so that you would know that I wasn't to be taken seriously, but all I got was a code line.
I have no idea whether you will burn in Hell. That's between you and God, and I am not privy to that information. All I can say is that if you are sincere in your own beliefs, whatever they are, and you do good service to your fellow man, my personal opinion is that there would be a place in Heaven for you as well.
You seem pretty hostile towards Christians, otherwise you would not be treating me this way. All I can say is that not all Christians are alike, so please do not judge us all by the actions of a few. I hope that one day you can reconcile yourself with God, and I will continue to pray for you, but even if you do not it is not my place to judge you. You and God can do a much better job of that.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2002 : 07:21:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Are you a real Christian? Please sell everything you own and send me all the money that you have.
Thanks.
If you have need of money I would be willing to help, but that commandment does not require that I destitute myself simply to enrich you. It is an admonishment to help those in need; it is not a license to be exploited.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2002 : 07:54:30 [Permalink]
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Another False Prophet as I suspected.
quote:
If you have need of money I would be willing to help, but that commandment does not require that I destitute myself simply to enrich you. It is an admonishment to help those in need; it is not a license to be exploited.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2002 : 10:03:24 [Permalink]
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Interesting, since Humanism was started by Christian scholars…
Humanism, which is still considered an apostasy by many fundamentalist churches, began as a reaction to the severity and harshness of the newly formed Protestant Churches and the civil abuses of the Roman Catholic church by a group called the Unitarians (not to be confused a present day group of the same name) and were not theists but rather deists- a version of agnostic. This group included many of the greatest minds this world has ever seen. Their humanistic efforts initiated what has come to be known as the "age of enlightenment" which culminated in the removal of religious tyranny from most of the governments in the western world.
The benefits of Humanism were so self evident that some sects of Christianity adopted them in the late eighteenth century and revised their bible teaching to reflect this trend. Before that time there are no Xian writings that espouse humanism in any but the vaguest forms.
something is superstition only as long as you do not understand it.
Which you do not. You constantly confuse myth with reality, whether it's a retelling of the Mithra story or monsters at the bottom of a lake fable.
If you could feel God in your life as I have felt Him, you would discover that my belief is not superstitious at all.
Give me a break. You "feel" him….pleaaaase.
The believers in the resurrected savior Attis and his mother Cybele at Rome every year at Easter so felt the presence of this pagan god that they would castrate themselves in mass.
Does their conviction of their feelings and their extreme gesture of devotion in any way indicate that Attis was anything other than a myth?
Is there any superstitious person who does not "feel" that their superstition is real?
The only difference is I can recognize when someone like you would be insulted by my sincerity, so rather than cause you personal pain I just pray for you in secret.
That's some strange idea of a secret. What was it Ben Franklin said about secrets? Three people can keep a secret if two of them aren't on the internet. Something like that.
I'm not at all insulted by your sincerity, it's your arrogance I have the problem with. You're going to pray for me, huh? What unmitigated conceit. Who are you to pray for me?
You seem pretty hostile towards Christians, otherwise you would not be treating me this way.
You've inserted your Christianity advertisement into a thread that is supposed to be about peoples "de-conversion stories."
Atheists and Agnostics, until quite recent times have been legally murdered by Christians. Today we are the only minority group it is considered proper to discriminate against. If you read past blurbs you will find stories of Atheists on these boards who were physically attacked by Christians-even one who was hit by a truck-solely because of their lack of belief.
Yes, I'm hostile towards Christians who don't keep their ridiculous beliefs to themselves. Fortunately most have the good manners to do so. Those I have respect for.
However, if you trot your private beliefs out on a public forum then they are open to all comment for they have ceased to be private.
All I can say is that not all Christians are alike, so please do not judge us all by the actions of a few.
I take you as you come. But you cannot claim to be a member of a group and then say that you have nothing to do with that group.
I hope that one day you can reconcile yourself with God,
I hope one day that you come out of the dark ages.
I will continue to pray for you,
And I will continue to think that you are arrogant and egotistical to do so.
but even if you do not it is not my place to judge you.
Do you even read what you write before you post it? All you have done on this board is pass judgement on others. Didn't you notice the thread Rat started that declares you a Troll? Personally I don't think you are. I think you have a sever problem, but I don't think you are just the next in a long line of creationist trolls.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2002 : 15:44:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Humanism, which is still considered an apostasy by many fundamentalist churches, began as a reaction to the severity and harshness of the newly formed Protestant Churches and the civil abuses of the Roman Catholic church by a group called the Unitarians. . . .
That's the official history. The unofficial history, which a number of humanist scholar friends (yes, friends) of mine confirmed, is that the Unitarians obtained many of their tenets from Christian humanists of the Renaissance.
quote:
If you could feel God in your life as I have felt Him, you would discover that my belief is not superstitious at all.
Give me a break. You "feel" him?.pleaaaase.
The believers in the resurrected savior Attis and his mother Cybele at Rome every year at Easter so felt the presence of this pagan god that they would castrate themselves in mass.
Does their conviction of their feelings and their extreme gesture of devotion in any way indicate that Attis was anything other than a myth?
I don't know, though as you would undoubtedly point out people in the grip of strong feeling are capable of almost anything. I can only speak for myself and say that I know God exists because I see Him at work in my life every day.
quote:
Is there any superstitious person who does not "feel" that their superstition is real?
Since you do not understand what it is like to have God working in your life you proclaim it a superstition. That is a claim based on ignorance, my friend.
quote:
I'm not at all insulted by your sincerity, it's your arrogance I have the problem with. You're going to pray for me, huh? What unmitigated conceit. Who are you to pray for me?
A fellow human being who sees another fellow human being so burned up with hate that he would literally try to damage a colleague's career simply because that colleague was a Christian. I do it out of concern and out of love.
quote:
You've inserted your Christianity advertisement into a thread that is supposed to be about peoples "de-conversion stories."
This is what the topic review says: " Just curious as to how many people here were raised in atheist/agnostic households vs. those who were raised in a religious atmosphere and what they presently believe." I see nothing about limiting the conversation to just "de-conversion". Based on this review I felt I was entitled to express my opinion. You seem to be the only person who has taken offense at it.
quote:
Atheists and Agnostics, until quite recent times have been legally murdered by Christians.
Such people are false Christians because such acts violate the commandments of Christ. I have had no part in any such acts and I repudiate them. I even apologize to all the people on this forum who have been injured by these false Christians on behave of my true bothers and sisters in Christ, in the name of Christ.
By the way, are you not persecuting me the way you claim Christians have persecuted you? Do you believe that two wrongs make a right?
quote:
Yes, I'm hostile towards Christians who don't keep their ridiculous beliefs to themselves. Fortunately most have the good manners to do so. Those I have respect for.
So Christians have no right to voice their opinions on this forum? Is this forum an atheists-only club that Christians are denied membership to?
quote:
However, if you trot your private beliefs out on a public forum then they are open to all comment for they have ceased to be private.
I understood that from the start. But no one has the right to denigrate another person simply because of that person's beliefs. What kind of a Humanist are you?
quote:
All I can say is that not all Christians are alike, so please do not judge us all by the actions of a few.
I take you as you come. But you cannot claim to be a member of a group and then say that you have nothing to do with that group.
I never said that I have nothing to do with the group. I only said that to judge all Christians as evil because of the actions of a few is wrong.
quote:
I will continue to pray for you,
And I will continue to think that you are arrogant and egotistical to do so.
So you consider brotherly love and concern for a fellow human being to be arrogance and egotism? Is that what Humanism teaches? Then I prefer Christianity.
quote:
but even if you do not it is not my place to judge you.
Do you even read what you write before you post it? All you have done on this board is pass judgement on others.
I was referring to your mistaken belief that I was condemning you to Hell. Pointing out when people are being irrational, childish, even hateful, is not the same thing as judging them damned for all time. To get people to change their behavior you often have to admonish them for their bad behavior.
quote:
Didn't you notice the thread Rat started that declares you a Troll? Personally I don't think you are. I think you have a sever problem, but I don't think you are just the next in a long line of creationist trolls.
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2002 : 15:52:22 [Permalink]
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Just to set the record straight before Slater can lie about it, I consider myself an evolutionary creationist.
I am a creationist because I believe that God created the heavens and the earth. But I am not a biblical literalist, so I do not believe in any form of formal creationism, neither young-earth nor old-earth nor progessive, etc. I do accept based on the evidence that evolution is a scientific fact and that natural selection coupled with neutral theory and punctuated equilibrium are the best mechanisms to explain it.
I choose to believe that evolution is the manner in which God chose to diversify life, just as gravity is the way He binds planets together and makes the stars shine, and chemistry is the way He created and sustained life.
So I am an evolutionist just as I accept as valid science relativity, quantum mechanics, atomic theory, etc. I just happen to believe that God created it along with the rest of the universe and has used it as part of His creative effort.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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Yuquiyu
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2002 : 17:46:28 [Permalink]
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To echthroi_man
So,are you saying that evolution is a natural, arbitrary, environment dependent process or a process guided by gods hands?
Are you mixing facts with assumptions?
What moves you to mix and screw everything up?
I do not understand, please tell me how can you do that, must be almost impossible to create such a monster! Please tell me!
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2002 : 18:06:00 [Permalink]
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unofficial history… the Unitarians obtained many of their tenets from Christian humanists of the Renaissance.
That's an interesting take. Can you supply any references such as who they were, when they lived and what they wrote?
I can only speak for myself and say that I know God exists because I see Him at work in my life every day.
I was pointing out the violence of the self-mutilation by the followers of Attis (see Sir James George Frazer The Golden Bough ) is that the intensity with which a belief is held is in no way representative of it's factuality. These believers in Attis clearly demonstrated the depth of their feelings and yet, I'm sure you would agree, Attis never really existed.
Therefore saying that you "feel" that there is a god is not a persuasive argument.
Since you do not understand what it is like to have God working in your life you proclaim it a superstition. That is a claim based on ignorance, my friend.
Hardly ignorance, it is a claim based on observation and study.
A fellow human being who sees another fellow human being so burned up with hate that he would literally try to damage a colleague's career simply because that colleague was a Christian.
My allegiance is to the Academy, not to you who are trying to undermine it.
I see nothing about limiting the conversation to just "de-conversion".
Except the very title
Based on this review I felt I was entitled to express my opinion. You seem to be the only person who has taken offense at it.
Such people are false Christians because such acts violate the commandments of Christ.
Don't lie to us about the bible, we've all read it too.
John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
For fifteen hundred years tens of thousands over us died horribly because of that snippet
By the way, are you not persecuting me the way you claim Christians have persecuted you? Do you believe that two wrongs make a right?
Do you think that your actions won't have consequences? Do you think you can pull any shit you feel like on a minority and they should sit back and take it?
So Christians have no right to voice their opinions on this forum?
Not what was said at all. Another Xian lie! Will they never cease?
What was said was if you bring your private faith to a public forum you present it for public inspection and comment.
If you keep it to yourself you shield it from comment. You may have noticed that it is a rare thing indeed for an Atheist to approach a christian and tell them that they are wrong. Not a weekend goes by that I don't have christians ringing my doorbell to "SAVE" me.
Is this forum an atheists-only club that Christians are denied membership to?
Hardly. It is a Skeptic forum however, people aren't thrown off for not following party lines as is SOP at Christian forums. Here if you hold ridiculous beliefs you will be told that they are ridiculous.
But no one has the right to denigrate another person simply because of that person's beliefs. What kind of a Humanist are you?
The type that calls a spade a spade. If a persons beliefs are harmful they are not going to be considered above comment.
I never said that I have nothing to do with the group. I only said that to judge all Christians as evil because of the actions of a few is wrong.
It is the institution itself which is rotten.
So you consider brotherly love and concern for a fellow human being to be arrogance and egotism?
I consider the fact that you portray yourself as being so superior that you intend to have a chat with your pal the creator of the universe about me not concern, not brotherly love, but pompous and rude beyond belief. When you know that a person is an Atheist it is poor manners, insulting. to tell them that you intend to pray for them
To get people to change their behavior you often have to admonish them for their bad behavior.
I'm trying, but you won't listen.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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