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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
 Posted - 07/31/2002 : 07:51:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
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That's an interesting take. Can you supply any references such as who they were, when they lived and what they wrote?
I will research it and get back to you.
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Therefore saying that you "feel" that there is a god is not a persuasive argument.
I never said it was; it is a total subjective situation, so I do not expect you to believe in God simply because I say he exists. My point is that YOU have to feel Him in YOUR life before you can come to believe that He exists.
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Since you do not understand what it is like to have God working in your life you proclaim it a superstition. That is a claim based on ignorance, my friend.
Hardly ignorance, it is a claim based on observation and study.
The only way you could determine if God is superstition is to know what it is like to have Him working in your life as compared to being out of your life, then conclude that there is no significant difference between the two experiences. Since you have not experienced the former, your conclusion (belief in God is superstition) is based on a lack of information, and hence based on ignorance.
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A fellow human being who sees another fellow human being so burned up with hate that he would literally try to damage a colleague's career simply because that colleague was a Christian.
My allegiance is to the Academy, not to you who are trying to undermine it.
My allegiance is to Humanity, hence my concern for you. By the way, the Academy does not think that I am undermining it. Are you smarter than they are?
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I see nothing about limiting the conversation to just "de-conversion".
Except the very title.
Right after the title DVF stated: " Just curious as to how many people here were raised in atheist/agnostic households vs. those who were raised in a religious atmosphere and what they presently believe." Note that nothing is said about limiting it to "de-conversion" stories. Then two of his poll responses were raised in a fervent household, still believe, and raised in a nonpractising household, stiill believe. Obviously he wanted to know if there were any forum members who were raised in a religious environment and were still believers. I therefore qualify to give an answer. I gave the answer I did because he did not present a choice saying something like raised in moderate practicing household, still believe. If you have a problem with me giving an opinion for that poll, take it up the DVF.
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Such people are false Christians because such acts violate the commandments of Christ.
Don't lie to us about the bible, we've all read it too.
That verse is not a commandment to go out and kill atheists; it is a metaphorical description of what would happen to unbelievers on the day of judgement. Personally I do not believe that Christ really said that, since it directly contradicts other things that He clearly said. I believe that it was added to the Gospel afterwards by less tolerant followers.
I would defy you to find one instance where Christ commanded His followers to go out and kill all unbelievers. You will, however, find commandments by Him to love all mankind and to good works for your fellow man. That is the true lesson of Christ; those are the commandents that are violated by the killing of atheists by self-proclaimed (but false) Christians.
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By the way, are you not persecuting me the way you claim Christians have persecuted you? Do you believe that two wrongs make a right?
Do you think that your actions won't have consequences? Do you think you can pull any shit you feel like on a minority and they should sit back and take it?
Since I constitute a minority on this forum, you obviously feel you can. All you are doing is taking your hostility towards Christians out on me; that is persecution. Since I have given you no reason for your actions they must come from a desire for revenge. That makes you as bad as the Fundamentalists you revile.
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So Christians have no right to voice their opinions on this forum?
Not what was said at all. Another Xian lie! Will they never cease?
What was said was if you bring your private faith to a public forum you present it for public inspection and comment.
If you care to go back and read my post carefully, you will see that what I was responding to was this comment: ". . . I'm hostile towards Christians who don't keep their ridiculous beliefs to themselves." That sounded very much like you were saying "You have no right to express your opinion here."
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If you keep it to yourself you shield it from comment. You may have noticed that it is a rare thing indeed for an Atheist to approach a christian and tell them that they are wrong.
Happens to me all the time.
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Not a weekend goes by that I don't have christians ringing my doorbell to "SAVE" me.
[/quove]
When on this list did I ever try to "save" you? All I ever said was that I hope one day you will reconcile with God; I made no attempt to bully you into doing that against will, and I never threatened you with hellfire. In fact, I went out of my way to state that in my opinion you will make it into heaven without having to be "saved". Stop trying to turn me into one of those false-Christian bigots.
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Is this forum an atheists-only club that Christians are denied membership to? |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2002 : 09:29:25 [Permalink]
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I had a great conversation with a born again christian once. First, I knew far more about his religion than he did. That should tell you something right there.
But a point I brought up was that his god demanded worship. Religious nuts, especially the christians, get into the holier-than-thou nonsense. It is not enough to simply believe, one must make overt shows of faith such as attending church, confession, etc. Why would an all-knowing diety require that? There is absolutely no need for a church or alter or even a spoken word to worship a god that already knows everything. it's simple psych 101- it's a requirement of man, much like god is an invention of man. Churches have less to do with god than delivering a social setting for people.
Well, christians are the light beer of catholic christianity to begin with. Anyone who wants to claim christ, but doesn't dedication to the strict tenets of the catholics just chooses some branch that doesn't ask so much of them, yet still offers the same rewards. Faith's great, less filling.
My response is that if you think your god requires living by a standard and making overt shows of faith- then any christian reading this BB is going to come up woefully short.
If that's the litmus test, then you'll be behind all the Amish, Mennonites, etc who really do live according to thier religion, not just invoke it when it's convienant.
It's so easy to spend an hour on a pew, drop a quick prayer at dinner, or give a god the credit when something good happens. That's not religion- that's a TV dinner for the soul. That doesn't even compare to the conviction and faith held by the Amish folks.
Isn't it convienant that you get to go to the same place and enjoy all the rewards given to those who are truly religious? People who dedicate their entire way of life and thier every second to god. What arrogance to think you would even rate in the eyes of a god when some people truly make thier religion the epicenter of thier life and society. Going thru the motions of religion is a far cry from faith. To claim the same god is an insult.
Be your own god!
(First, and only, commandment of Sollyism)
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2002 : 09:36:09 [Permalink]
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I think we've shown that he's not a Christian. Even he's said he doesn't believe in the Bible "literally." Which means that whenever someone criticizes something in the Bible, that person has taken that point "out of context." Which means one would have to quote the entire bible in order to ever quote the bible. They don't use the same logic on themselves, however.
Walk on water, then come to me.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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isaone
New Member
USA
1 Post |
Posted - 07/31/2002 : 09:41:13 [Permalink]
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It seems to me that most people raised in fervent religious households continue to believe through their entire lives no matter what their experience. Yet some raised in the same house are struck by an experience or a book or something and begin to question. This often leads to their becoming non-believers. Why ? Is it just random that they (the ones who changed) had some events that their brothers did not ? Or is it that there is someting biochemically diferent between the two groups ?
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2002 : 11:14:53 [Permalink]
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I will research it and get back to you.
Thank you.
it is a total subjective situation, so I do not expect you to believe in God simply because I say he exists. My point is that YOU have to feel Him in YOUR life before you can come to believe that He exists.
That makes no sense at all. Claims of existence are objective, they can't by definition be subjective.
If you came to me and claimed that my dog had pooped on your lawn I might not want to believe you. However you would have little or no difficulty in proving your existential claim objectively. I would not have to "feel the dog plop in my life" in order to believe it was there. It is unfathomable to me why you use less decrement in the question of the existence of god than you would for a pile of dog shit.
The only way you could determine if God is superstition is to know what it is like to have Him working in your life as compared to being out of your life, then conclude that there is no significant difference between the two experiences. Since you have not experienced the former, your conclusion (belief in God is superstition) is based on a lack of information, and hence based on ignorance.
I am one of the most ordinary, garden varieties of Atheist. One who spent a large section of their lives as a theist but through intense study and open-mindedness came to realize that all claims of the existence of any god were groundless. No trauma, no crises of faith. Just the realization that theists claims had no support.
So I am quite qualified to call it a superstition, knock on wood.
By the way, the Academy does not think that I am undermining it. Are you smarter than they are?
Actually, I'm exactly as smart as they are because I am they.
That verse is not a commandment to go out and kill atheists;
Gee, too bad the Christian church didn't have you around to correct their clerical error. You could have saved tens of thousands of innocent men and women from being burned alive. Hey, no hard feelings, Jesus didn't really mean it.
Personally I do not believe that Christ really said that, since it directly contradicts other things that He clearly said. I believe that it was added to the Gospel afterwards by less tolerant followers.
Does it never occur to you that the reason you are so fond of Christianity is not because you agree with its tenets but because you change them to suit your own sensibilities? You believe any damn thing you want and then claim it's Christianity.
I would defy you to find one instance where Christ commanded His followers to go out and kill all unbelievers.
I just gave it to you. John 15:6. YOU don't like it because YOU are a decent human being. So YOU say that Jesus didn't really say it because YOU don't want to believe that Jesus had worse morals than YOU have. Even though it's right there in black and white and taken as a mandate for murder by the church until civil authorities clamped down on their crimes.
All you are doing is taking your hostility towards Christians out on me;
One more time. If you present your religion on a public forum you cease to hold it above comment. If it is ridiculous it will be ridiculed. If it is hateful and deceitful it will be called on it.
If you are unequipped to defend you philosophies then withdraw.
That sounded very much like you were saying "You have no right to express your opinion here."
You have every right to express your opinion.
What you have no right to is to keep others from expressing their opinions of your opinion.
You say that you read quite a bit of this site before you decided to join in. You must have noticed that there are no sacred cows here.
You may have noticed that it is a rare thing indeed for an Atheist to approach a christian and tell them that they are wrong.
Happens to me all the time.
They come to you? Or do they just respond when you share Jesus with the general public?
When on this list did I ever try to "save" you?
So you have stopped praying for me then?
Stop trying to turn me into one of those false-Christian bigots.
Oh if I only had a nickel for every Xian who complained about "false-Christians" on this forum. Funny thing is, each complainer had a different take on what Christianity is. Your stated views of Christianity are quite unique and I'm sure that the last three or four "True Christians" would label you as a false one just as quickly as you would label them.
But you are going way beyond that. You are trying to portray me as a bigoted, pseudoscientific Fundamentalist simply because I am a Christian.
Liar. You aren't a Fundamentalist. A bigot and a pseudo-scientist but not a fundamentalist.
You LOVE the thought that you are being persecuted for being a Christian. You just love it. "O'Brien the martyr for Christ" has such a nice ring to it.
So much better than "O'Brien the illogical."
You have threatened to sabotage my career and reputation simply because I am a Christian.
Liar. I said nothing more than that I would (and already have) make sure that your own writings were read.
You are allowing your hatred of false Christians to cloud your judgement and condemn an institution that was founded on brotherly love.
Liar. It is an institution founded upon anti-intellectualism and the enslavement of mankind. As evidence I present the first one thousand five hundred years that Christianity ruled western man.
You yourself, however, seem to feel sufficiently superior that you can put yourself in God's place, read my heart, and then pass judgement on my possible motives, despite the fact that you really known very little about me.
I know quite enough about you. You are a cliché.
How could I know you are an Atheist?
You said you had read through this site before joining, it is no secret.
As for being insulted, well since you chose to be insulted by a compassionate gesture, the problem is yours, not mine.
Your arrogance is without limit, you really are a true Christian.
By the way, I am not praying for you because you are an Atheist, I am praying for you because you are so hateful
You appear to be praying for me because you yourself are being hateful and duplicitous. One needn't have super natural abilities to read men's hearts (or is that to cloud men's minds?) to recognize passive aggression when it is so obvious.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860
Edited by - slater on 07/31/2002 11:21:28 |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 03:34:27 [Permalink]
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Another False Prophet as I suspected.
So you belive you can determine who is a true Christian by testing whether their interpretation of a single verse matches your own?
That's what Fundamentalists do; welcome to their ranks.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 03:55:52 [Permalink]
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So,are you saying that evolution is a natural, arbitrary, environment dependent process or a process guided by gods hands?
I'm saying that God designed it so that it can operate independently of Him or under His control. Think of it as being like one those simulation programs like SimEarth. God created the hardware (space/time) and the software (the physiochemical laws), the prograned the hardware with the software and started it running. He probably lets it run by itself most of the time, but every now and then He interacts with the program and manipulates the conditions to produce certain desired results. As this applies to evolut6ion I believe that what He does is manipulate the contingent factors that help drive evolution rather than control evolution itself.
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I do not understand, please tell me how can you do that, must be almost impossible to create such a monster! Please tell me!
Stephen Jay Gould first put this idea into words, but it is something I believed for as long as I can remember. He stated that science explains the "how" of nature while religion explains the "why". Put another way, science tells us how the universe originated and how it operates, while religion tells us the purpose for its existence. (Gad, the poor man must have been really enslaved to superstition to have come up with that one!)
Carried over into everyday life, this suggests that science and religion operate within the boundaries of two separate realms, the physical and the spiritual, respectively. Science is used to explain the physical realm while religion is used to explain, or at least describe, the spiritual. Note: I am not claiming here that these realms are "real" in the sense that they are actual structures; in this context the realms are just concepts.
As such, science explains how evolution works while religion explains why it has worked in the manner it has. Hence I can accept the contingent nature of evolution while at the same time entertaining the notion that God may be able to manipulate it at times to chieve His own desired ends.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 04:11:51 [Permalink]
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Isn't it convienant that you get to go to the same place and enjoy all the rewards given to those who are truly religious? People who dedicate their entire way of life and thier every second to god. What arrogance to think you would even rate in the eyes of a god when some people truly make thier religion the epicenter of thier life and society. Going thru the motions of religion is a far cry from faith. To claim the same god is an insult.
Christ was asked what were the greatest of the commandments, and He answered:
You shall love God with all your heart, and all your mind, and all your soul; and
You shall love your brother as yourself.
(Brother in this context means your fellow man.)
That's pretty much it; the rest is ritual and window dressing.
Christians are required to love God wholly and completely. Whether they do this through external rituals or internal devotion is irrelevant. Christians are required to love their fellow man. Whether they do this by devoting their lives to service or by simply praying and tithing is again irrelevant. How one lives his or her life is less important than what one does with that life. I have chosen to serve mankind as a scientist working to understand Down Syndrome. That I do not live an austere lifestyle is irrelevant as long as I try to make a contribution and I do it to honor God.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 04:19:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think we've shown that he's not a Christian. Even he's said he doesn't believe in the Bible "literally." Which means that whenever someone criticizes something in the Bible, that person has taken that point "out of context." Which means one would have to quote the entire bible in order to ever quote the bible.
I didn't say that you took that verse out of context, I said you were not interpreting it properly. You believed it was saying that if you demand that I give you all that I own, I must do it. Christ meant nothing of the sort. Also I should point out that Christians are not expected to honor requests based not on genuine need but on greed and the cynical desire to "test" whether a person is what you think a Christian should be.
However, many people do take verses out of context, but you do not need to quote the whole Bible. All you need to do is explain the chapteral context of the verse; that is usually sufficient.
As a final note I find it interesting that skeptics criticize Fundamentalists for taking the Bible too literally but then turn around and criticize mainstream Christians for not taking it literally enough. Can't you guys make up your mind?
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all!
Edited by - echthroi_man on 08/01/2002 04:21:43 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 04:30:59 [Permalink]
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So, what makes you a Christian? You don't believe in the Bible, you don't do what the Bible says that Christians do, what makes you a Christian?
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So you belive you can determine who is a true Christian by testing whether their interpretation of a single verse matches your own?
That's what Fundamentalists do; welcome to their ranks.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 05:01:03 [Permalink]
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Actually, I've never criticized fundies for taking the Bible too literally. That would at least be consistent. I don't see the logic in believing parts of the Bible and rejecting others. Either it's the Word of God, or it isn't.
I don't think I've ever criticized you, either. I've simply noted, that from what the Bible says, Christians should be tested, and you have failed an important test.
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As a final note I find it interesting that skeptics criticize Fundamentalists for taking the Bible too literally but then turn around and criticize mainstream Christians for not taking it literally enough. Can't you guys make up your mind?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 05:13:55 [Permalink]
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it is a total subjective situation, so I do not expect you to believe in God simply because I say he exists. My point is that YOU have to feel Him in YOUR life before you can come to believe that He exists.
That makes no sense at all. Claims of existence are objective, they can't by definition be subjective.
If you came to me and claimed that my dog had pooped on your lawn I might not want to believe you. However you would have little or no difficulty in proving your existential claim objectively. I would not have to "feel the dog plop in my life" in order to believe it was there. It is unfathomable to me why you use less decrement in the question of the existence of god than you would for a pile of dog shit.
God is not a physical entity, so the rules for determining the reality of physical entities/objects do not apply. God works in the lives of men and women by acting through their spiritual aspect, not their physical aspect. Since people exist in a physical world, their physical aspects can freely interact, thus physical existential claims may be experienced by all, thus giving rise to the ability to objectively prove physical existential claims. However, people do not operate in a spiritual world, so their spiritual aspects are limited to themselves and do not interact. As a result spiritual exitential claims can only be experienced by the person making the claim, thus such claims can only be subjectively proven.
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I am one of the most ordinary, garden varieties of Atheist. One who spent a large section of their lives as a theist but through intense study and open-mindedness came to realize that all claims of the existence of any god were groundless. No trauma, no crises of faith. Just the realization that theists claims had no support.
So I am quite qualified to call it a superstition, knock on wood.
This would be where you would expect a Fundamentalist to tell you that you never truly felt God in your life, but being as I cannot read your heart I have no way of knowing whether that is true. So I shall believe that instead you have satisfied my criteria and that you can indeed determine if Christianity is superstition.
You will forgive me, however, if I do not find your experience convincing.
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By the way, the Academy does not think that I am undermining it. Are you smarter than they are?
Actually, I'm exactly as smart as they are because I am they.
Funny, I thought the Academy had more than one member.
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Does it never occur to you that the reason you are so fond of Christianity is not because you agree with its tenets but because you change them to suit your own sensibilities? You believe any damn thing you want and then claim it's Christianity.
I get the exact same argument from Fundamentalists. I find it amazing that despite your opposite-poles beliefs concerning God, that Fundamentalists and Skeptics nonetheless seem to be in such close agreement on many issues. I guess it just goes to show you that all Fundamentalists like alike, regardless of whether they are Fundamentalist Christians or Fundamentalist Atheists.
And as I pointed out in another post, don't you think it is a tad hypocritical to criticiize Fundamentalist Christians for taking the Bible too literally and then condemn mainstream Christians for not taking it literally enough?
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I would defy you to find one instance where Christ commanded His followers to go out and kill all unbelievers.
I just gave it to you. John 15:6. YOU don't like it because YOU are a decent human being. So YOU say that Jesus didn't really say it because YOU don't want to believe that Jesus had worse morals than YOU have.
On the contrary, you have twisted and distorted its meaning because you could not find any other basis for your hatred of Christianity.
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That sounded very much like you were saying "You have no right to express your opinion here."
You have every right to express your opinion.
What you have no right to is to keep others from expressing their opinions of your opinion.
If I have such power, how come I can't get you to shut up? Oh, silly me, it's because I no such power. And no such desire either.
But you can critique (note, I said critique, not criticize) my beliefs without denigrating them or me. You do it because you like to do it, it makes you feel like a big man to beat up on the little Christian.
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When on this list did I ever try to "save" you?
So you have stopped praying for me then?
As I said, I am not praying that you be saved, but that you turn away from your hate.
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Oh if I only had a nickel for every Xian who complained about "false-Christians" on this forum. Funny thing is, each complainer had a different take on what Christianity is. Your stated views of Christianity are quite unique and I'm sure that the last three or four "True Christians" would label you as a false one just as quickly as you would label them.
Since I do not know what they believe it is impossible for me to do that.
By the way, I believe essentially the same things as millions of mainstream Christians. As such we all tend to agree on what consitutes a false Christian.
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But you are going way beyond that. You are trying to portray me as a bigoted, pseudoscientific Fundamentalist simply because I am a Christian.
Liar. You aren't a Fundamentalist. A bigot and a pseudo-scientist but not a fundamentalist.
Thany you for admitting it, not that there was ever any doubt.
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You have threatened to sabotage my career and repu |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 05:20:36 [Permalink]
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So, what makes you a Christian? You don't believe in the Bible . . .
I do believe in the Bible; I just do not believe that every word of it must be taken literally. There is a difference.
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. . . you don't do what the Bible says that Christians do . . .
I do exactly what the Bible, or rather Christ, tells me to do; I just don't do what YOU think I as a Christian should do. There is a difference.
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. . . what makes you a Christian?
The same thing that would make anyone a Christian: I believe that Christ is the Son of God, that His sacrifice on the Cross has cleasened the whole world of its sins, and I follow His commandments.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 05:26:43 [Permalink]
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Actually, I've never criticized fundies for taking the Bible too literally. That would at least be consistent. I don't see the logic in believing parts of the Bible and rejecting others. Either it's the Word of God, or it isn't.
Christ is the Word of God, and since the Bible contains the words of the Word of God, it should be respected and obeyed. But the Bible also contains the words of men, not all of which were inspired by God. As religious people it is our responsibility to determine what are the true words of God and what are the words of men. To assume that the Bible must be taken completely literally is an irrational, extreme position.
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I don't think I've ever criticized you, either. I've simply noted, that from what the Bible says, Christians should be tested, and you have failed an important test.
Yours is a false test, based on your biased interpretation of one verse. I thus have no fear concerning my standing as a Christian in the eyes of God.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all!
Edited by - echthroi_man on 08/01/2002 05:28:39 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 05:57:40 [Permalink]
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Good for you. You're a good sport. I don't understand a bit of it and I think it's unhealthy, but that's your decision not mine. Hope it serves you well. I also hope you're on the side of those that wouldn't impose "In God We Trust", "Under God", etc. all over the place on those of us that don't share your ideas.
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Yours is a false test, based on your biased interpretation of one verse. I thus have no fear concerning my standing as a Christian in the eyes of God.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 08/01/2002 05:58:22 |
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