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guenevere
New Member
1 Post |
 Posted - 03/14/2002 : 23:49:13
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hey all !
this is my first time here , after breezing though only a small portion of this sight i just wanted to say how right you guys are.
in your posts you have said what huge hypocrites Christains are and your right , we ourselves are one of the greatest pitfalls Christianity will ever have to overcome,frankly i can see why a lot of people are reluctant to give God a chance
but please don't blame Him for OUR mistakes.
now being the intelligent ,rational people you are i know you don't want to judge anything without the facts....
heres the Bible in a nutshell...
1 God creates earth
( i mean 6,24hr days)
day 1 light
2 He seperates the sky from water.
3 dry ground,and with it all vegitation,EACH ACCORDING TO IT'S OWN KIND!
4 sun and moon... you will notice that prior to this there was no sun , in other words the world did NOT evolve for thousands of years with out the sun !
5 all birds ,all fish ,all beasts of the earth (except man)
6 and finally last but not thousands of years later ...Adam! God says he created Adam in His own image ( not in the image of a single celled critter).
O.K. for all those critics out there i want you to hang on for a few moments yet, i'm condensing 66 books here...
ok. adam gets lonely , God makes eve,
and they sin , ( I am doing the best i can here and please , if you have further ridicule let me know)
earth is cursed and no longer perfect.
as generations come they become more and more evil so that God is sorry he bothered with us at all and sends down a flood to rid the earth of everyone and everything(after ample warning) all is destroyed except noah's family and at least two of every creature.
generations come, becoming more and more evil.
now i'm not perfect ...nobody is ... and God needs perfect , so in the old testament
God sets down certian rules and sacrifices to make up for our mistakes, he does this becuase He loves us and want to be with us.
after a while though it becomes clear that these poor animal sacrifices are not a permanent answer, so Gods sends a sacrifice , perfect and blameless ,His Son.
that basically is the entire basis for Christainity...
now i imagine you skeptics are going yeah and your'e point is?
my point is that you say the only basis for creationism is faith that there is no concrete evidence for it. well i'd like point out it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution ... you want to believe in evolution... because if the earth is created , then it follows that there must be a God, which means there must be a right or wrong, which means you can't do whatever you feel like doing , am i right?
now if youre reading Xev, you said that the Bible says the flood dried up in one month in one verse and two months the next verse.
genesis 8:13 is merely noting that it was the first day of the first month of noahs 601st year.
donnie b , you asked why an all knowing creater would create the eye such as he did.
and the answer is ... that's the simplest way to create an eye . do you know how the first pinhole cameras worked ? i can't explain the entire process ,but look it up. and if your'e not satisfied with that answer, how about answering why it evolved that way?
also evolution is based on lucky mutations and yet to my memory i have yet to see a living mutated being that is better off for it's mutation than others of it's kind?
anyway i hope i get a few replies i know i haven't explained a lot but i welcome questions of all kinds...
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 00:15:46 [Permalink]
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I er......this is a joke right?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 00:37:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
my point is that you say the only basis for creationism is faith that there is no concrete evidence for it. well i'd like point out it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution ... you want to believe in evolution... because if the earth is created , then it follows that there must be a God, which means there must be a right or wrong, which means you can't do whatever you feel like doing , am i right?
now if youre reading Xev, you said that the Bible says the flood dried up in one month in one verse and two months the next verse.
genesis 8:13 is merely noting that it was the first day of the first month of noahs 601st year.
donnie b , you asked why an all knowing creater would create the eye such as he did.
and the answer is ... that's the simplest way to create an eye . do you know how the first pinhole cameras worked ? i can't explain the entire process ,but look it up. and if your'e not satisfied with that answer, how about answering why it evolved that way?
also evolution is based on lucky mutations and yet to my memory i have yet to see a living mutated being that is better off for it's mutation than others of it's kind?
anyway i hope i get a few replies i know i haven't explained a lot but i welcome questions of all kinds...
Um. No. Creationism is entirely based on faith, while evolution is based on evidence. There are many on this board who are more versed than I who will be happy to debate this point.
Since you're just "breezing through", allow me to give you a heads up. The religious beliefs of the members of this forum run the spectrum. And religion isn't the only thing we post about. Read a newspaper lately?
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 00:47:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
... i welcome questions of all kinds...
Did you forget to take your medications?
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
[i]The Preparation of the Gospel[/i] |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 02:20:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
... i welcome questions of all kinds...
Did you forget to take your medications?
 ROFLOL
*
Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 02:26:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
heres the Bible in a nutshell...
Wow!
Now I've seen the light!
It took the Bible in a nutshell from a nutcase to win me over...
Nixon: "I am not a crook."
Bush: "Read my lips-no new taxes."
Jesus: "I am coming soon." |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 06:42:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
donnie b , you asked why an all knowing creater would create the eye such as he did.
and the answer is ... that's the simplest way to create an eye . do you know how the first pinhole cameras worked ? i can't explain the entire process ,but look it up. and if your'e not satisfied with that answer, how about answering why it evolved that way?
Well, Guen, I don't think I put it quite like that. If I did, I was in a hurry. What I should have said was, why would such a talented design engineer (your purported Creator) have come up with such a suboptimal design for the eye? (The same argument applies to many other parts of the human body, and other animals'. The spine, for example; I know from bitter experience just how bad that puppy's design is for upright humans.)
The human eye is designed inside out, with the blood supply and nerve connections on the top (illuminated side) of the retina. Far from being the "simplest design", it's absurdly overcomplicated, and it leaves us with a blind spot (a literal one, not the figurative kind). Nor are there any redeeming advantages to this design that I've ever heard of. And this is just one example of the design problems. Are you old enough to need bifocals? Why did your purported Creator make our eyes' lenses stiffen after age 40 or so, so that we lose the ability to accommodate (focus on close objects)? Did your Creator want you to stop reading your Bible after that age? If so, aren't you flouting His will by wearing glasses or contacts?
A clever designer (even a lowly human one) would never put together this kind of system this way -- he'd be laughed out of the lab. I assume that a divine Creator would be equally ashamed of such a blunder. But evolution doesn't care -- it works with the materials at hand, namely existing organisms with less-sophisticated eyes. Since it's not a conscious being, evolution is not capable of shame or even of sensing that its design is illogical. If the organisms with the suboptimal eye manage to survive and reproduce, it's a success, no matter how silly.
The evolution of eyes has been very well traced, from simple light-sensitive patches, through cup-like depressions, through pinhole-camera type image-forming eyes (I understand how they work very well indeed), to complex eyes with lenses. Indeed, eyes are so useful that they have evolved not once but many different times in different ways (think of the compound eyes of insects, for example).
I don't imagine you will accept this evidence, since your faith won't allow it, but it's there, and it explains the various design flaws I mentioned above. That's why science is different from faith (despite what your fellow-creationists say). Our understanding of the world is based on actually looking at it in detail (albeit though imperfect eyes), not blindly accepting the assertions of priests and shamans.
Oh, and please don't lecture us on the Bible. Some of us know it very well indeed, perhaps better than you do. I'm a veteran of many years of Sunday School, summer Vacation Church School, church camps, junior and senior choirs... need I go on?
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 09:38:52 [Permalink]
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God… loves us??
If there really was a God he'd either be evil or not omnipotent. In either case he/she/it wouldn't be worth any worship at all.
We're, according to Christians, all Gods children. Right then, parents usually protect their children from harm. Keep them safe, warm and sheltered.
Why then, does God let children be maimed by landmines, run over by cars, killed in drive-by shootings and so on and so forth? Okay, maybe he doesn't have the power to interfere. Then he's not all-powerful.
If he can interfere and choose not to, then he's truly an evil being. What has the child, walking across a field with landmines ever done to God? Nothing. So why doesn't God remove the freaking landmine? If he has the power to do that?
I'm not really certain what Guenevere is getting at. Hello, it's the 21st century, woman wasn't made from a rib-bone. And what about the first Gensis, where man and woman was created at the same time? Was that just “take one”?
Can God create a stone so heavy he can't lift it?
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
-Albert Einstein |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 11:08:14 [Permalink]
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Gu-uys, take it ea-sy on her...she's new.
Guenevere: Welcome.
quote:
now if youre reading Xev, you said that the Bible says the flood dried up in one month in one verse and two months the next verse.
genesis 8:13 is merely noting that it was the first day of the first month of noahs 601st year.
Well, let's take a look:
quote:
And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
So, Noah removes the covering of the ark, the waters were dry, and also, the face of the ground was dry.
But!
quote:
And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.
So the earth dried in the second month.
quote:
my point is that you say the only basis for creationism is faith that there is no concrete evidence for it. well i'd like point out it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution ...
How so? There is a lot of evidence for evolution occuring. Peppered moths, drug-resistant bacteria, fossils of species changing, biological simularities between organisms, vestigial structures such as feet on whales...
Try http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html
http://chem.tufts.edu/science/evolution/Vuletic.htm if you are interested.
quote:
you want to believe in evolution...
Wrong! I don't 'want' to believe in evolution any more than I 'want' to believe in the inverse square law or general relativity. Evolution happens to be correct, so I believe in and defend it.
quote:
because if the earth is created , then it follows that there must be a God,
No, perhaps the earth was created by Cthulu, the interdimensional monster that H.P Lovecraft wrote so many stories about.
quote:
which means there must be a right or wrong, which means you can't do whatever you feel like doing , am i right?
But I can't do whatever I feel like doing anyway. Not only am I morally obliged to live ethically, I will be punished if I do somthing illegal and am caught.
But, let's turn this around. You are a Christian, no? Are you not forgiven for your sins?
I am an athiest, and must carry the burden of my sins on my conscience for the rest of my life.
Who is going to suffer more for thier immoral actions? Who will feel worse?
Thought constitutes the greatness of man -Pascal |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 11:20:06 [Permalink]
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Just adding more, sorry that got so long:
quote:
also evolution is based on lucky mutations and yet to my memory i have yet to see a living mutated being that is better off for it's mutation than others of it's kind?
Billions of years is more than enough time to accumulate lucky mutations. While most mutations prove harmful or useless, enough are usefull to 'fuel' natural selection.
Also, Omega points somthing else out:
quote:
And what about the first Gensis, where man and woman was created at the same time? Was that just “take one”?
There are two different stories about the creation of humans!
Gen.1:25-27
quote:
"And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and the cattle after their kind ... And God said, Let us make man ... So God created man in his own image."
But!
Gen.2:18-19
quote:
"And the Lord God said it is not good that man should be alone; I will make a help-meet for him. And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them."
The Skeptic's Annotated Bible has an interesting link:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contradictions.html
I submit that, for Creationism to be a valid theory, it must explain all 303 contradictions listed here.
And that would only make it valid. To be correct, it would have to make testable predictions that proved correct.
Evolutionary theory does not suffer from such contradictions, and it does make testable predictions that prove correct.
Thought constitutes the greatness of man -Pascal |
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Bradley
Skeptic Friend
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 12:33:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
...i just wanted to say how right you guys are.
in your posts you have said what huge hypocrites Christains are and your right...
My old dad used to tell me that a man is judged by the company he keeps.
"Too much doubt is better than too much credulity."
-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833 - 1899) |
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Physiofly
Skeptic Friend
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 21:33:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
well i'd like point out it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution ... you want to believe in evolution...
I think Xev addressed this well. Faith has nothing to do with fact. The convergence of information from such varied fields as biology, genetics, geology, and paleontology have demonstrated repeatedly and consistently that evolution happened. I don't want to believe in evolution any more than I want to believe that fire is hot - they are just facts of life.
quote:
because if the earth is created , then it follows that there must be a God, which means there must be a right or wrong, which means you can't do whatever you feel like doing , am i right?
You are assuming connection and causality where none exists. Believing in God is not a prerequisite for knowing right and wrong.
quote:
donnie b , you asked why an all knowing creater would create the eye such as he did. and the answer is ... that's the simplest way to create an eye.
Fact is, the human eye is not the simplest way. Check out the squid eye, they don't have anatomical blind spots like we do and the photoreceptors are located on the inner layer so light doesn't have to pass through blood vessels and several layers of neurons, like our eyes.
http://soma.npa.uiuc.edu/courses/bio303/Ch11b.html
This is also a good site to learn about the evolution of the eye. 
"Be careful about reading health books. You might die of a misprint." - Mark Twain |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2002 : 01:51:38 [Permalink]
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Hi Guen,
There's little I can add to what's already been said, so I'll add some anyway.
The Theory of Evolution is not a belief system. It is nothing more than an explanation for a group of tested facts put forth thus far.
I have no faith in it. I merely accept it because nothing else does as good a job. The theory can be debunked at any time simply by finding a single out-of-place fossil (a genuine one, not some Creationist's wishful dreaming, and there's a lot of that out there). Were that to happen, I'd drop the theory into the garbage and go on to something else with no regrets, as would the world of science.
It is highly unlikely that this will happen. As more evidence comes in, the theory recieves more conformation. Some of it gets changed around now and then, but even these changes reflect it's basic soundness.
So anyhow, Welcome to SFN!
f
"Don't tell me your doubts; I've got enough doubts of my own. Tell me something you BELIEVE in!"
Brother Dave Gardner |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2002 : 08:25:57 [Permalink]
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Welcom, Guen. I hope you have a very thick skin. Please understand that the challenges others present you here are not personal attacks, but requests for backing of your claims.
Best of luck. You'll need it.
It seems to me that I remember every fuckin thing I know. (Tragically Hip) |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2002 : 09:58:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
my point is that you say the only basis for creationism is faith that there is no concrete evidence for it. well i'd like point out it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution ... you want to believe in evolution because if the earth is created , then it follows that there must be a God, which means there must be a right or wrong, which means you can't do whatever you feel like doing , am i right?
As has been pointed out here, science is evidence based. When you say that "there is no concrete evidence" for creationism, you are correct. It would, in fact, be fair to say that creationism isn't a theory at all. At best it's a hypothesis. And not a very good one at that. There are simply mountains of evidence supporting evolution. I suggest you do some reading on the subject. A good place to start would be to learn how the scientific method works. Don't look to creationist publications for answers. They are in-house and not subject to peer review. And the main thrust of those publications has been to knock holes in evolutionary theory as if their "theory" wins by default. So far, they have only succeeded in bringing over those who are basically ignorant of how science works. I can tell you that if some new evidence actually did knock out evolution, it would not be replaced with a faith based science. Creationism does not win by default. In other words, the succeeding theory would most likely be just as naturalistic as the theory of evolution. Your assertion that if evolution goes down then there must be a god is nonsense.
I think it might be helpful to point out for the umpteenth time that science takes no position on God. Evolution simply means change over time. There are plenty of evolutionary scientists who do have faith in one religion or another. They are able to separate there faith based beliefs and supporting evidence for scientific theory.
It's only a radical but vocal few, who, because they feel the need to take Genesis as absolute fact, cause the rest of the scientific world to waste time defending evolution. These creationists appeal to ignorance. And, as we can see by the current Ohio case, there is plenty of that going around. At The Institute For Creation Research, the scientists have to sign a statement of faith that all of the bible has be taken literally. That means that they already know the "truth" and that "truth" is not falsifiable. That is not science. The idea that any supporting evidence for evolution must be wrong because it doesn't support there narrow view of creation is anti-science. They are missionaries dressed up like scientists. Plus, they offer no theory of their own.
One other thing. Morality is cultural. We do what works. We don't get to do anything we want to do just because we might not believe in God. Contrary to what you beleive, I have yet to meet a sociopathic atheist. If you look at the prisons, you will find that an overwhelming percentage of prisoners are God fearing.....
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 19:12:04 [Permalink]
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*Sighs*
And like that, she's gone!
Why do they never stick around?
(And cook breakfast, yeah yeah yeah, come off it :D)
Seriously, is 'hit and run' a common creationist tactic?
Ecrasez l'infame
-Voltaire |
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