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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 06/10/2001 : 12:15:13 [Permalink]
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First of all, I will go along with some, not all of what they're saying.
Secondly, I have noticed there are stories that seem to slip under the radar somehow. It's a shame that sometimes I have to read European newspapers on-line to find out what's going on here. I've noticed that a lot of the stories that get left in the dust here, deal with First Amendment rights. Oh, the stories are there, but you gotta dig.
Then again, maybe the media is just trying to make money. Which would Joe Sixpack rather read about, attacks on the Constitution, or the Mayor of New York's sex life? In other words, I think the American people have to shoulder some of the blame for the proliferation of "puff-pieces" and the increasing tabloid flavour of the media.
Cigar, anyone?
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2001 : 12:40:03 [Permalink]
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Yes, Lisa I will have to join you there. The American people have become rather apathetic when it comes to hearing the truth and would rather be entertained. It's easier to think about someone elses sex life than their own and if thats the case why do they want to even wonder if their constitutional rights are being slowly eroded away while they sit on their ass.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2001 : 12:54:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yes, Lisa I will have to join you there. The American people have become rather apathetic when it comes to hearing the truth and would rather be entertained. It's easier to think about someone elses sex life than their own and if thats the case why do they want to even wonder if their constitutional rights are being slowly eroded away while they sit on their ass.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2001 : 13:17:23 [Permalink]
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Saddam has thumbed his nose in the face of the UN and its sanctions. Saddam has the power to stop any and all attacks against his country and it's peoples, yet he chooses over and over again to defy the international community. Maybe someone needs to slap the boy and make him see that his actions are directly causing the retaliations.
Sorry, I lost one too many friends in the gulp war...between 1st Mar Div...and the barracks at Riyahd.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2001 : 13:53:46 [Permalink]
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Even if that were true, that gives the U.S. no right to slaughter and terrorize Iraq's inhabitants and work to make Saddam Hussein an even stronger dictator. Again, what you are doing is listening to the State Department handouts that the corporate media regurgitate.
This refutes the earlier stated notion that this is what the people want. What you seem to want is to know what happened, but the corporate media only tell a narrow side of the story. We keep hearing about 'Saddam' and his 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' repeated as though it were some religious mantra. We don't hear about the terrorism of the U.S.
Don't let your friend and others' friends die in vain. Help stop terrorism and genocide. Change U.S. foreign policy.
quote:
Saddam has thumbed his nose in the face of the UN and its sanctions. Saddam has the power to stop any and all attacks against his country and it's peoples, yet he chooses over and over again to defy the international community. Maybe someone needs to slap the boy and make him see that his actions are directly causing the retaliations.
Sorry, I lost one too many friends in the gulp war...between 1st Mar Div...and the barracks at Riyahd.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2001 : 14:16:43 [Permalink]
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Saddam is the one who kicked out the UN peacekeeping forces, or have you decided to forego that little fact in your lexicon. Saddam is the one who fired at UN forces flying in the no fly zone. The subsequent bombings were retaliatory in nature for those attacks. Oh, and I'm not eating what the media feeds me...I'm basing this on information that has passed through my hands that the media will not get their hands on for 75 years. So I have to keep my information in the realm of what is released to the media. We kept and met our objectives, what you will never know is just how close to Bahgdad we were. But Saddam was not our objective, ejecting Iraqi soldiers from Kuwait was...
As for Saddam, there is more concern regarding his second in command than him. Look I'm looking at this from the perspective of military personnel, not a civilian. The UN has offered to lift sactions if Saddam will meet UNSC requirements. He doesn't...these actions do not mitigate his responisbilities in this situation.
You expect the UN should roll over and play dead in the face of a dictator because people are suffering under HIS defiance of internation pressure? I don't think so, the UN acts as a mediator for many countries in need of outside help. Look at UNSC resolutions regarding the Taliban, they haven't lifted their restrictive rule either, in fact just recently they threatened the relief workers in their country with stoning for breaking any of their extraordinarily restrictive rules.
The UN sanctions exist to determine just what kind of threat Saddam presents to the international community. Biological weapons do not in any way recognize our arbitrarily defined political borders. Do you really want him to set off biological weapons if he has that capability.
Also, think about the some 66 back pack nukes missing from the arsenals of the former soviet union, do you really want to change that Saddam or bin Laden might have a couple of those stored in their arsenals now.
I am well aware of the situation beyond what the media produces...because I don't agree with your stand don't assume I am swallowing the DOD line on the issue. I have been inside the issue and and looked at all angles and aspects I have information on, as long as Saddam thumbs his nose at the international community the sancations must stand as a warning to all that the UN and its constituants will not back down on certain issues of international concern.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2001 : 14:24:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Saddam is the one who kicked out the UN peacekeeping forces, or have you decided to forego that little fact in your lexicon. Saddam is the one who fired at UN forces flying in the no fly zone. The subsequent bombings were retaliatory in nature for those attacks. Oh, and I'm not eating what the media feeds me...I'm basing this on information that has passed through my hands that the media will not get their hands on for 75 years. So I have to keep my information in the realm of what is released to the media. We kept and met our objectives, what you will never know is just how close to Bahgdad we were. But Saddam was not our objective, ejecting Iraqi soldiers from Kuwait was...
As for Saddam, there is more concern regarding his second in command than him. Look I'm looking at this from the perspective of military personnel, not a civilian. The UN has offered to lift sactions if Saddam will meet UNSC requirements. He doesn't...these actions do not mitigate his responisbilities in this situation.
You expect the UN should roll over and play dead in the face of a dictator because people are suffering under HIS defiance of internation pressure? I don't think so, the UN acts as a mediator for many countries in need of outside help. Look at UNSC resolutions regarding the Taliban, they haven't lifted their restrictive rule either, in fact just recently they threatened the relief workers in their country with stoning for breaking any of their extraordinarily restrictive rules.
The UN sanctions exist to determine just what kind of threat Saddam presents to the international community. Biological weapons do not in any way recognize our arbitrarily defined political borders. Do you really want him to set off biological weapons if he has that capability.
Also, think about the some 66 back pack nukes missing from the arsenals of the former soviet union, do you really want to change that Saddam or bin Laden might have a couple of those stored in their arsenals now.
I am well aware of the situation beyond what the media produces...because I don't agree with your stand don't assume I am swallowing the DOD line on the issue. I have been inside the issue and and looked at all angles and aspects I have information on, as long as Saddam thumbs his nose at the international community the sancations must stand as a warning to all that the UN and its constituants will not back down on certain issues of international concern.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2001 : 14:31:36 [Permalink]
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Well, sorry for the extra posts. Not used to this yet.
I don't know what you mean about "Saddam" kicking out the U.N. peacekeeping forces. "Saddam" was not in a position to kick anyone out of anywhere. The U.N. decided, when the U.S. decided to intensify its eternal bombing campaign, to remove the inspectors from Iraq.
Since the U.S. illegally put spies in with the inspectors the Iraq government has said that it will not cooperate with inspectors. Which it had, previously, for the most part.
Thanks to the U.S. there are no inspectors, but at the time, there was no one in Iraq who seriously thought that there were any meaningful "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq.
I'm not going to argue with anyone point for point. That takes too much time, and you're obviously emotionally attached to the issue, and U.S. propaganda is too attractive to you at the moment.
I can only offer some web sites (see the web sites for some good books) that have more information.
http://www.iraqaction.org
http://www.endthewar.org
quote:
Saddam is the one who kicked out the UN peacekeeping forces, or have you decided to forego that little fact in your lexicon. Saddam is the one who fired at UN forces flying in the no fly zone. The subsequent bombings were retaliatory in nature for those attacks. Oh, and I'm not eating what the media feeds me...I'm basing this on information that has passed through my hands that the media will not get their hands on for 75 years. So I have to keep my information in the realm of what is released to the media. We kept and met our objectives, what you will never know is just how close to Bahgdad we were. But Saddam was not our objective, ejecting Iraqi soldiers from Kuwait was...
As for Saddam, there is more concern regarding his second in command than him. Look I'm looking at this from the perspective of military personnel, not a civilian. The UN has offered to lift sactions if Saddam will meet UNSC requirements. He doesn't...these actions do not mitigate his responisbilities in this situation.
You expect the UN should roll over and play dead in the face of a dictator because people are suffering under HIS defiance of internation pressure? I don't think so, the UN acts as a mediator for many countries in need of outside help. Look at UNSC resolutions regarding the Taliban, they haven't lifted their restrictive rule either, in fact just recently they threatened the relief workers in their country with stoning for breaking any of their extraordinarily restrictive rules.
The UN sanctions exist to determine just what kind of threat Saddam presents to the international community. Biological weapons do not in any way recognize our arbitrarily defined political borders. Do you really want him to set off biological weapons if he has that capability.
Also, think about the some 66 back pack nukes missing from the arsenals of the former soviet union, do you really want to change that Saddam or bin Laden might have a couple of those stored in their arsenals now.
I am well aware of the situation beyond what the media produces...because I don't agree with your stand don't assume I am swallowing the DOD line on the issue. I have been inside the issue and and looked at all angles and aspects I have information on, as long as Saddam thumbs his nose at the international community the sancations must stand as a warning to all that the UN and its constituants will not back down on certain issues of international concern.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2001 : 14:34:13 [Permalink]
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Um look, you've posted that link more than once, unfortunately in war life isn't pretty. People, even innocents, die. Do you have a point to make or a reasoned responce regarding my post or are you going to keep insisting I continue to read your preferred website? I looked, I don't agree, simple.
So what's your point here?
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2001 : 14:38:32 [Permalink]
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Oh my, we are confused. No Saddam kicked the UN inspectors out because there were American scientists included. The entire point of the UN inspectors was to determine the Iraqi capabilities regarding biological and nuclear weapons. What spying, they were looking at those secrets openly, that's why they were there. The US may be taking a greater stand than the UN but your falling for Saddams propoganda here. Don't swallow this stuff hook line and sinker. Think about future ramifications of biological and nuclear weapons in the hands of the likes of Saddam.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2001 : 14:43:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm not going to argue with anyone point for point. That takes too much time, and you're obviously emotionally attached to the issue, and U.S. propaganda is too attractive to you at the moment.
Oh yeah, I'm one of those the the shrub and his father think aren't real Americans. Spend the time and think about this issue. You obviously have views regarding it, I'd like the opportunity to debate point for point.
Otherwise I'm left to assume you are following for the Iraqi propoganda machine and those who have a poor international view of the US. Believe me, the shrub has left lots with a bad taste regarding Americans...even those of us who have served our country.
Defend your point, or don't waste my time. I enjoy international politics and the debates that can ensue. Are you just parroting these sights because you don't like the US?
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2001 : 15:08:54 [Permalink]
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I've spent a lot of time with Christians and others who are emotionally attached to their ideas, and who do not wish to learn anything. If you're sincere about learning about this point of view, the you'll look at the web sites, maybe buy a book. If you're not, you won't.
If you think these URL's are bullshit, then I don't care. If you think you can learn something from them, then do so. I don't have the time or the energy to argue point for point and do a lot of research to show you facts and figures that you don't care about anyway.
This from http://www.nonviolence.org/vitw
Myth 4: The Iraqi government has weakened and undermined the UN weapons inspection program, in part by kicking out inspectors in December 1998, thus forcing the US and UK to undertake "Operation Desert Fox."
The Iraqi government, knowing that the United States favors Saddam Hussein's ouster and will impose sanctions until a "regime change," has no incentive to cooperate with the United States or intrusive inspections. Top Clinton administration officials-notably Secretary of State Madeleine Albright-have said publicly that sanctions will remain intact until Saddam Hussein is out of office. (12)
This is not stipulated under the UN resolutions enforcing the sanctions.
Unscom director Richard Butler removed inspectors from Iraq prior to the December 1998 bombardment of the country, contrary to what is commonly reported. The US government claims Iraq "threw out" inspectors. In fact, the opposite occurred. According to Butler's own records, his team of weapons inspectors made numerous unimpeded visits the week before the December bombing. On only a few intentionally provocative visits was he prevented from inspecting a site. (13)
In February 1998, former weapons inspector Raymond Zilinskas stated that "95 percent of
[Unscom's] work proceeds unhindered." He wrote in the Chicago Tribune, "Although it has been theoretically possible for the Iraqis to regain such weapons since 1991, the duplicity would have been risky and expensive, and the probability of discovery very high." (14)
Butler himself confirmed that he was in constant communication with the US military the week before the bombing. He often took his cues from Washington. Furthermore, the US government admitted (after an embarrassing Washington Post story) that it had been using Unscom to spy on Iraq. Iraq had previously charged Unscom with spying-a claim vehemently denied by the US government. (15) The ultimate irony is that Iraq pays for the entire UN operation in Iraq through oil
revenues, thus financing workers to spy on behalf of the United States.
Efforts at negotiation and conciliation, such as UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan¡¯s February 1998 visit to Baghdad, have produced cooperation and an opening for dialogue. Establishment of a clear timetable for ending inspections and recognizing progress made by the Iraqi government would provide clear incentive for future dialogue and compliance.
quote:
Oh yeah, I'm one of those the the shrub and his father think aren't real Americans. Spend the time and think about this issue. You obviously have views regarding it, I'd like the opportunity to debate point for point.
Otherwise I'm left to assume you are following for the Iraqi propoganda machine and those who have a poor international view of the US. Believe me, the shrub has left lots with a bad taste regarding Americans...even those of us who have served our country.
Defend your point, or don't waste my time. I enjoy international politics and the debates that can ensue. Are you just parroting these sights because you don't like the US?
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2001 : 15:22:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
If you think these URL's are bullshit, then I don't care.
My apologies if I come across as close minded regarding some issues. I do look at the evidence, when I find enough to change my mind regarding an issue I will. It is still my position that Saddam's continued resistance to the UN resolutions are his responsibility.
quote:
In February 1998, former weapons inspector Raymond Zilinskas stated that "95 percent of
[Unscom's] work proceeds unhindered."
Saddam did hinder where possible... Also, your report says it is the opinion of... any conclusive debate regarding spying is going to have to wait on the freedom of information act regarding this... some 75 years from now. If I'm still around I'll probably read all of it.
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Furthermore, the US government admitted (after an embarrassing Washington Post story) that it had been using Unscom to spy on Iraq.
Are there evidence and facts to support this statement? I'd really like to read them, BTW I am researching more into this issue...
Also, your info is 3 years old. read the following link, shrub actually pulled his head out of his a**.
http://www.bergen.com/news/2spowell2200102275.htm
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2001 : 15:37:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
My apologies if I come across as close minded regarding some issues. I do look at the evidence, when I find enough to change my mind regarding an issue I will. It is still my position that Saddam's continued resistance to the UN resolutions are his responsibility.
It is the U.S. that has a military blockade against the people of Iraq. It does not help them or us to deny them clean water, kidney machines, electricity or ambulances. If Saddam is a terrible dictator, then the people of Iraq are a captive population. Let's help them, not terrorize and kill them with almost daily bombings and sanctions.
quote:
In February 1998, former weapons inspector Raymond Zilinskas stated that "95 percent of
[Unscom's] work proceeds unhindered."
Saddam did hinder where possible... Also, your report says it is the opinion of... any conclusive debate regarding spying is going to have to wait on the freedom of information act regarding this... some 75 years from now. If I'm still around I'll probably read all of it.
Wouldn't you want your government to hinder an attacking country's progress wherever possible?
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Furthermore, the US government admitted (after an embarrassing Washington Post story) that it had been using Unscom to spy on Iraq.
Are there evidence and facts to support this statement? I'd really like to read them, BTW I am researching more into this issue...
15. Barton Gellman, "US Spied on Iraqi Military Via UN," Washington Post, March 2, 1999, p. A1.
quote:
Also, your info is 3 years old. read the following link, shrub actually pulled his head out of his a**.
http://www.bergen.com/news/2spowell2200102275.htm
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Yes, it is old, because it was in reference to something that happened at that time. Isn't it interesting, that for ten years we were told that we had "Smart Sanctions," but now we're being told we're really, really, really for sure this time going to impose really really "Smart Sanctions?"
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2001 : 15:45:50 [Permalink]
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I'm moving this thread to Politics since that seems a more appropriate place.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Topic Locked
