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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
 Posted - 06/11/2001 : 01:03:49 [Permalink]
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Did someone forget to mention that Saddam was being supported by the US and was in fact in power because of US actions.
Just like the Shah of Iran, and countless other dictators.
The CIA seem to make friends with dictators a lot easier then with democracies, in fact they often overthrew democracies because they wont do as the US wish.
Without the US giving Iraq all those weapons to fight the First Gulf war he would never have been able to invade anything.
If the US were truly interested in human rights they would never have put him in power, and would never have given Iran to the Shah.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 06:35:08 [Permalink]
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Well said. These things are not discussed daily in the corporate media.
quote:
Did someone forget to mention that Saddam was being supported by the US and was in fact in power because of US actions.
Just like the Shah of Iran, and countless other dictators.
The CIA seem to make friends with dictators a lot easier then with democracies, in fact they often overthrew democracies because they wont do as the US wish.
Without the US giving Iraq all those weapons to fight the First Gulf war he would never have been able to invade anything.
If the US were truly interested in human rights they would never have put him in power, and would never have given Iran to the Shah.
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 10:44:42 [Permalink]
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Oh but they were discussed in the "corporate media" and I was aware of all of these points. These points were discussed in magazines, books, television and newspapers. Let's strive for a little accuracy here. None of which made it OK for Saddam to invade Kuwait. It was bad when the CIA helped put the Shah into power and it was just as wrong for Saddam to invade Kuwait .
The Iraqi people could do a lot to help themselves by getting rid of Saddam. If they did that, the amount of aid that would flow into Iraq would be substantial.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 14:27:46 [Permalink]
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Yes, let's starve them and impoverish them and deny them proper medical treatment and books and transportation and make Saddam Hussein as strong as we can so that the ordinary people of Iraq can have every chance to take over. Good idea.
quote:
Oh but they were discussed in the "corporate media" and I was aware of all of these points. These points were discussed in magazines, books, television and newspapers. Let's strive for a little accuracy here. None of which made it OK for Saddam to invade Kuwait. It was bad when the CIA helped put the Shah into power and it was just as wrong for Saddam to invade Kuwait .
The Iraqi people could do a lot to help themselves by getting rid of Saddam. If they did that, the amount of aid that would flow into Iraq would be substantial.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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sega
Skeptic Friend
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 14:48:12 [Permalink]
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Alright time for my 2 Cents.
As we all know, in any war, it is the non combatants who suffer, and ultimately lose regardless of the outcome. Saddam could end the suffering, it is in his power.
The UN sanctions can be lifted in 2 instances.
1 the UN puts it to a vote, and a majority of member nations agree to lift the sanctions.
2. Saddam follows the provisions which allow the sanctions to be lifted.
Ok, which is gonna happen first?
The UN will probably not agree, even if the US supported lifting of the sanctions, and Saddam apparently does not care enough for his people to comply. Stalemate.
Saddam saves face by not agreeing and continues to hold tight the reigns of power, and the UN not the US holds power over these sanctions.
A third possible outcome is that the Iraqi's overthrow Saddam, but he is like a Damn cockroach, and hard to kill.
The US does hold some culpability in this realm ,we bailed on backing the uprising which ocurred in the northern part of Iraq in the early 90's. (forgive me , I forget the name of the people in northern Iraq.)
Add to this the continued fighting between Sunni Muslims and the other sects and you have a real tough nut to crack.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 15:11:31 [Permalink]
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First: The U.N. ain't a gonna do much without the U.S. and the U.K.
Second: Saddam ain't a gonna follow the provisions because the provisions are that he be dead and the U.S. install another dictator. There ain't no other provisions.
Third: Non-Combatants are not supposed to be the targets. This is simply a terrorist campaign to make certain that the Arabs mind the Boss. Nothing more.
quote:
Alright time for my 2 Cents.
As we all know, in any war, it is the non combatants who suffer, and ultimately lose regardless of the outcome. Saddam could end the suffering, it is in his power.
The UN sanctions can be lifted in 2 instances.
1 the UN puts it to a vote, and a majority of member nations agree to lift the sanctions.
2. Saddam follows the provisions which allow the sanctions to be lifted.
Ok, which is gonna happen first?
The UN will probably not agree, even if the US supported lifting of the sanctions, and Saddam apparently does not care enough for his people to comply. Stalemate.
Saddam saves face by not agreeing and continues to hold tight the reigns of power, and the UN not the US holds power over these sanctions.
A third possible outcome is that the Iraqi's overthrow Saddam, but he is like a Damn cockroach, and hard to kill.
The US does hold some culpability in this realm ,we bailed on backing the uprising which ocurred in the northern part of Iraq in the early 90's. (forgive me , I forget the name of the people in northern Iraq.)
Add to this the continued fighting between Sunni Muslims and the other sects and you have a real tough nut to crack.
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 16:03:45 [Permalink]
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Um, did you bother reading anything I posted under Politics? This is the UN page, the forces in Kuwait were under the command of the UN through Swartzkopf and Powell. Get your freaking story straight here. The UN is the imposing the sanctions not the US. Open your eyes and mind and read the sanctions page from the UN!
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 17:49:38 [Permalink]
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Most countries that participated really didn't have much choice. For instance, Yemen and Yemeni diaspora suffered greatly. There was a lot of bribing and arm-twisting and back-stabbing. Left alone, the Arabs probably could have settled the whole thing themselves. Again, do a little research and you'll find this out.
Read "The Fire This Time" by former Atty. General Ramsey Clark
quote:
Um, did you bother reading anything I posted under Politics? This is the UN page, the forces in Kuwait were under the command of the UN through Swartzkopf and Powell. Get your freaking story straight here. The UN is the imposing the sanctions not the US. Open your eyes and mind and read the sanctions page from the UN!
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 22:54:24 [Permalink]
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I think Slater said this elsewhere, quit copying every frickin' post. It's annoying. I can go back and read the previous post myself. Copy only the relevent part. It is quite apparent to me that you are only willing to view that material which supports your own views.
I am not going to site that are written by anything other than the source. Read the UNSC resolutions! Form an unbiased opinion there since there are no biased opinions simply a statement of the facts. I'm not the one here swallowing someone elses opinion without judging the validity of their case on their own. You continually make SWEEPING statements that in part or entirety are utterly false. You balloon the import of certain points to hard sell your position. Sorry, I was in sales for a while this is a typical tatic. As for your posts regarding the media repeating a mantra, well they do need to sell their product. Someone doesn't like the US, big whoop! I've been to other countries, can't think right now of anywhere else I'd rather live...I like my freedom. I like getting a $60 dollar ticket for speeding, beats getting thrown in jail for a week any day. Judge not only the source of your information but the bias behind. In other words: try the horses mouth instead of the horses ass.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 01:43:02 [Permalink]
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Touche Trish! Glad you also suggested moving this whole thing over to the politics folder.
Back to just plain old media issues. Has anyone seen the whole industry vs military flame war about CNN's accusation that we used sarin gas during the Vietnam War? The way CNN got caught with it's pants around the ankles would be funny if it wasn't so disgusting. http://www.hackworth.com
Read "Big Lie".
To anyone here who's ever been in the military, is in the military now, has friends/family in the military, or who even believes the USA should have a military: you'll be yakking your cookies by the time you get to the "dead soldiers sell" comment.
I have friends who were over there, and I'm disgusted that a network would want to sell their blood for ad dollars.
Lisa (am I ranting AGAIN?)
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 03:06:14 [Permalink]
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I read your link. Who do those bastards think they are!? Yeah, knew more than a few Jarheads over there. Fred, Ken, Jim and a few others.
The Marine across the street from me walked out of Chosan and served in Nam. These men are heroes, I'm definitely giving this info to my neighbor. (For those of you who don't know about Chosan Reservoir, it was a Marine Amphibious Landing gone wrong during Korea. Very few Marines walked out that day.)
It has been brought to my attention by garrette that I am in error here. So I will correct this I incorrectly and confused Chosin with Inchon. Mea Culpa, to all the vets...especially my friends who served.
quote:
It involves the Chosin Reservoir (you spelled it 'Chosan'). It was not an
amphibious landing, Marine or otherwise. The landing you're thinking of was
Inchon which happened in September of 1950 and resulted in an amazing
reversal of fortune leading to an American/UN advance nearly to the Yalu
River. Then the Chinese attacked, and it all went to hell.
Chosin Reservoir has become the name given to the epic retreat (275 miles;
the longest in U.S. military history), mostly on foot, and with the
abandonment of tons of materiel and equipment that resulted from the Chinese
attack. The 1st Marine Division participated as part of the 8th Army under
General Walker. Many, many acts of heroism and toughness characterized the
retreat, and it was nearly miraculous that the entire force wasn't lost,
when instead, nearly all of it was saved.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention, now I really need to go find my *green monster*. (The Marine handbook...and reread my history lessons )
A low life lying peice of slime that ought to crawl back under its rock! This guy has some freakin' nerve calling himself a journalist.
Lisa, this kind of sh*t pisses me the F*** OFF! Some won't even pay attention to the aftermath of this, just that women and children were killed by the US use of Sarin gas in Laos.
Not that the prime source of info is a convicted felon, not that no one else supports his story, not that sarin is a colorless odorless gas that kills almost instantly...none of this will be remember just that the US Military are baby killers!
Gorgo is this CNN yellow jounalist one of the people you choose to believe? He's a liar after the sensational story at any cost! Screw the truth!
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! quote:
Edited by - Trish on 06/12/2001 19:10:16 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 07:08:56 [Permalink]
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No I don't believe every story that comes along, however, if the U.S. had any credibility at all, there wouldn't be so many questions like this come up. We would know the truth right away, wouldn't we?
quote:
Gorgo is this CNN yellow jounalist one of the people you choose to believe? He's a liar after the sensational story at any cost! Screw the truth!
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 07:27:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm disgusted that a network would want to sell their blood for ad dollars.
You are surprised when the owner (who's a complete nut himself) was married to Jane Fonda?
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 15:21:41 [Permalink]
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Don't paint the entire network with the same brush. Sure, Peter Arnett really screwed the pooch with this one, but the fallout has been pretty entertaining. Their military analyst, whom Arnett did not even bother to courtesy copy, quit in disgust. Several of their top reports and writers also walked. CNN took a severe blow to the credibility, and they know it.
Has anyone noticed we don't see old Peter as much as we used to? Wonder if he was fired, quit, or demoted to coffee server? Not that I really care.
For even more entertainment, check out Hack's archive of columns.
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 15:54:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
You are surprised when the owner (who's a complete nut himself) was married to Jane Fonda?
I hear that the reason he dumped her was that she had been born again (born yesterday?) and had taken to evangelizing.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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