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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
 Posted - 04/08/2002 : 05:54:55 [Permalink]
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I think you are misusing your terms. Homosexuality and criminal behavior are certainly natural in that they are the products of cause-and-effect relationships. They may not be behaviorally normal but one can say that about many behaviors
Are you saying that criminals only kill or steal, because something caused them to?
Yes, but obviously some criminal acts are done with a greater degree of 'free choice' than others. That is the crucial disctinction that society makes when assigning culpability.
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For one thing, some crimes are only a criminal act because society says so. Criminals who have no reguard for others have different brains, but does that make it not natural?
Not at all. I agree with you. By metaphysical naturalism, every real, natural effect has a real, natural cause.
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And what IS normal. I am NormaL . Aside from that, homosexuals are not abnormal to themselves. All things being equal that is, if one accepts himself, and wasn't raised to think it's strange behavior, I mean. Which it isn't.
I don't understand how you say something is natural but not normal?
Normal behavior is determand by society and society is usualy wrong.
Yes, this is what I was trying to convey. Sorry I wasn't terribly clear. I don't know if I agree that societal norms are "usually wrong" but that was the implied source of "normal behavior."
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field.
-Niels Bohr
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2002 : 06:51:41 [Permalink]
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Wow, human nature...What a quagmire of opinion! Kinda reminds me of someone telling me that human nature is evil, and then saying the Creator is the only way out of that evil. There are as many ideas about this as there are nuances of human behavior. Maybe, it's one of those things where everyone is right, because they all make their own rules?
I will say this, though, human nature is extremely variable on a person to person basis, and this is one of the reasons we require government. We can guarantee all the personal freedoms we like, but at some point someone has to step forward to protect the personal freedoms of those that are less able. Too bad that all too often those protectors turn out to be the worse violators.
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2002 : 20:10:05 [Permalink]
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I agree with you.
Yes, this is what I was trying to convey
Ok, swell PH, glad we got that cleared up. I was only asking, not trying to argue.
Everyone said it couldn't be done. So no one tried. Execpt one little old man who lived in a cave on the other side of the world. He hadn't heard it couldn't be done. So he tried it. He couldn't do it either.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2002 : 20:23:45 [Permalink]
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Wow, human nature...What a quagmire of opinion!
There are as many ideas about this as there are nuances of human behavior. Maybe, it's one of those things where everyone is right, because they all make their own rules?
How right you are. I just took a philosophy class last semester and with the exception of a couple of the authors who I completely disagreed with, they all put forth theories and explained in ways that sounded acceptable. Kind of like a smorgish board, a little of this and a little of that.
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I will say this, though, human nature is extremely variable on a person to person basis, and this is one of the reasons we require government. We can guarantee all the personal freedoms we like, but at some point someone has to step forward to protect the personal freedoms of those that are less able. Too bad that all too often those protectors turn out to be the worse violators.
One comment, if we all participate in our government, then we are protecting ourselves. The less able are just one part of the whole.
However, you are right about the ones who are supposed to be helping but make things worse. Damn politicians.
Everyone said it couldn't be done. So no one tried. Execpt one little old man who lived in a cave on the other side of the world. He hadn't heard it couldn't be done. So he tried it. He couldn't do it either.
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2002 : 05:14:05 [Permalink]
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One comment, if we all participate in our government, then we are protecting ourselves. The less able are just one part of the whole.
Very true. Thanks for the reminder.
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2002 : 07:01:00 [Permalink]
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Participation makes little difference if participation is reduced to validating a process in which we really have little say.
When the media and the think tanks are run by corporations, politics tend to be run by corporations. That's not always bad, but we see by creations such as NAFTA and the IMF that such a structure can be extremely harmful.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2002 : 14:14:58 [Permalink]
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Participation makes little difference if participation is reduced to validating a process in which we really have little say.
That may be true, but I believe that the original point Snake tried to make was that if 'all' participated with the same degree of input. I'm just sorry that it is not a perfect world.
Plus, I may agree with you on your views of NAFTA anf the IMF, but there are a million other opinions out there that may be just as valuable. It is not a perfect world. I only wish that I knew all the answers.
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2002 : 17:56:30 [Permalink]
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PhDreamer> To me natural human nature should take into account our ability to contemplate our actions. Or the consequences of our actions.
I don't agree with you that animals show any signs of self-awareness. They don't leave their natural habitat (unless we take them to zoo's), they can only do what their parents taught them (unless humans step in and teach them to jump through hoops) and live as they have for ever (unless humans destroy their habitat).
What do you mean, then, by “self-important”? The capacity for something is not the same as doing.
Argh, the free will-story? :) You don't reduce free will by knowing all the possible choices. You broaden your will or amount of options.
“Of course, humans are not entirely greedy or selfish or violent, if this is what you mean (and I must say it is rather difficult to understand what you mean by 'natural' here). They do, however, exhibit those behaviors in response to certain stimuli. I would certainly call this natural; at least some of these behaviors have been selected for.”
Ah, I think I understand what you mean by natural now. The actions as responses to certain stimuli under certain circumstances?
Our real disagreement I think is this: When I see the animal-shows on TV, I see the fish driven by instincts and follow their migration routes no matter what happens. An oil-tanker could leak its entire contents out, and the fish would swim mindlessly into the oil and die. But the actions of the fish are natural. They do what they've always done.
Now you have humans. Let's say I walk from work, and see and oil spill on the road. I can deduce, without ever having tried it, that if I walk onto the oil to get to my bus, I'll probably slip, get oil on my boots and it'll be a mess. So I can take another route. I can change my daily migration route.
That we're not only driven by instincts is my point. Why else discuss ethics and morals? If every human action is “natural”, then whatever we do, no matter what can be filed under “natural human action”.
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2002 : 18:45:03 [Permalink]
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Omega, it's difficult for me to stipulate to the definition of 'natural' that I think you want to use because I think it carries with it a lot of philosophical baggage. I am uncomfortable with the concept of non-natural because it is decidely easy to equate that with supernatural (which I define as violation of natural cause and effect). In addition, I think your usage of 'natural' invites speculation and arbitrary distinctions unless we have an objective standard of 'natural.'
I agree that my definition of 'natural' has an immense scope but I don't think that's a problem because observable cause-and-effect is what makes these things comprehensible in the first place. Thus, we can comfortably define 'natural' as behaviors exhibiting the objective property of causality rather than attempt to discern what nature "intended" our behavior to be.
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field.
-Niels Bohr
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2002 : 19:07:25 [Permalink]
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PhDreamer> Yes. I see the disagreement doesn't really stem from different opinions on the basics, but the definition of “natural”.
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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