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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/31/2008 : 03:30:53 [Permalink]
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Yes, I found it so. My comment, #80, went thus:
Being from an agnostic/atheist family, I have been religion-FREE for some 68 years, now. As nothing has come along to convince me that any sort of Big Juju has ever existed, I rather doubt that I will change my mind.
The Confraternity of Catholic Clergy is merely another group of blatherskites in funny cloths with a little authority over some portion of the world's deluded, said authority granted them by those same deluded. The Klan might be seen as similar, but they haven't done as many lynchings as the Church. Happily, the Klan is waining and, if what I've read is correct, the Church's recruitment is down a bit. May the ascent into reason continue......
And a little way down the page, #98 I got this neat response:
Totally off topic to Duvenoy:
I've not heard Blatherskite used since Ducktales and Gizmo Duck.
Nostalgia is a wonderful thing.
Posted by: Notkier
All too true. The very best words are seldom used these days.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2008 : 19:16:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Good posts...
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Yeah; good posts, Dave.
What a relief to find that I didn't accidentally start praying for PZ too early... |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2008 : 19:29:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Zebra
What a relief to find that I didn't accidentally start praying for PZ too early... |
ROTFLMAO. Good thing I wasn't drinking at that moment. Whew! |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 19:52:38 [Permalink]
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Rev. Fr. John Trigilio, Jr was apparently the person who wrote the Confederation of Catholic Clergy's press release, that thing which showed the CCC to be blindingly stupid.
On his own blog, Trigilio has two new pieces up. One, "Biologist Balks at Request to Apologize," clearly shows that is unable to engage in the rational discussion he calls for:...Many of us are in tears that our beloved Savior would be subjected to such vile treatment AGAIN. Was it not enough that Jesus was scourged at the pillar, crowned with thorns, and then nailed to a cross for three hours until He died? Like Our Lady of Sorrows, we must weep at the foot of Calvary once more as the Body of Christ is treated with the same disdain and dishonor. PRAY FOR PROFESSOR MYERS... The second, "All rights are inalienable but none are absolute," tries to clarify the whole "unconstitutional" business of the press release but makes a mess of it. He then mistakes contempt for hatred, and rambles on for a while once again demanding that other people respect his beliefs (apparently only because he respects other religious beliefs). He simply doesn't grok that they're all contemptible, so who gives a fig that the good padre would refuse to smash a statue of Buddha?
On the plus side, Trigilio used a single sentence in both blog posts to repudiate any/all calls for PZ to be harmed. But those single sentences amongst so much noise are ridiculously minimal, and so fail to properly address the issue which got PZ going in the first place.
And because people try to make some more bad analogies in the comments of the second blog piece, I've left the following comment:Baseballs and other memorabilia which have a small cost to produce have a much larger value to collectors only because there is an open market in which to trade such items. Their real value isn't set by the owner, but is set by market forces (if I ask for a million bucks for a baseball that other collectors deem is worth only $250, I will get no bids). These items are also only have value on an open market when it is possible to determine, in principle, the difference between the genuine articles and the fakes.
There is no open market for consecrated communion wafers, nor is it possible for a disinterested third party to discriminate between consecrated and unconsecrated wafers. Certainly none of the good people here would ever think to try to sell one, anyway (even though it is in your power to do so, Father).
Hypothetically, say I had a note written by my grandmother on her deathbed. I would, of course, value such a note greatly. But were someone to steal it, I couldn't legally claim it had a monetary value larger than the paper it was written on. Don't confuse fiscal value with emotional value.
(To properly continue the baseball analogy, Major League Baseball would be analogous to the Catholic Church, while a fan who catches a home run would be analogous to a communicant. Therefore, it is indeed the receiver of the property who sets its value, as can be seen by some fans deciding that a caught ball is worthless and throwing it back on the field. And if Major League Baseball were to even try to set prices on caught balls, as you wish to do regarding the Host, it would be a scandal which would rock the entire baseball-collectibles market. On another note, Babe Ruth is dead, and there will never be another Babe Ruth baseball "created," but billions of unconsecrated wafers are made every year and millions are consecrated every week. Babe Ruth's baseballs are a unique and limited "resource," and therefore are a poor analogy to communion wafers.)
Perhaps if the Catholic Clergy were to start taking out insurance on the consecrated wafers, a judge would take that into account when appraising the value of the wafers in a court case accusing someone of theft of one. Until then, their real value to the court must be no more than the two cents that anyone with a credit card can buy the unconsecrated version for.
And while people have, indeed, been fired for stealing minimal-value objects (such as office supplies), it is generally because they stole a large quantity of them. I know of nobody who has been fired for taking a single pencil, for example.
Backing up, let's say that instead of emotional value, the consecrated wafers have intellectual value. There is a boatload of case law which states that if the owner of intellectual property fails to defend his right, he loses those rights. It happened to Xerox. So far as I know, Catholic Priests and extraordinary ministers who distribute Communion do not even ask the communicants if they are, indeed, Catholics in a state of grace. Such a failure to ensure that the Host is only distributed to those who should have it could be seen as a centuries-long neglect of the Church's duty to protect its property. Xerox lost its legal protection in less than half a century.
I hope the above helps in understanding why this is not such a big deal to some (not all, and probably not most) non-Catholics.
Oh, I'd also be very interested if anyone could cite documents regarding the lastest instance of someone stealing a consecrated wafer actually being heard by a secular court. |
Moderation is on at Trigilio's blog, so I don't know if it'll ever see the light of day over there. Time will tell. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2008 : 04:02:20 [Permalink]
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Didn't see it, Dave, and this guy is thin-skinned enough that I don't expect to. That's quite an itinerary he's got for the Grandiose Pilgrimage to Fatima & Lourdes, isn't it?
And all this fuss is over a ridiculous superstition surrounding a bit of flavorless baked goods that any restaurant would be ashamed to serve a customer, even with salsa. Amazing!
I had thought that it would have simmered down by now, but I see I was wrong. The Catholics now have a 'cause' that they can whine & cry persecution over for a good, long time and they seem to be determined to do exactly that.
: Religion-free since 1939!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2008 : 09:12:02 [Permalink]
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I have only been following this superficially, must admit not to have read everything at every site on which it's been discussed.
But when did that ever stop me from offering an opinion? [/rhetorical question]
OK, I get it, some/many Catholics see "misuse" (by others) of communion wafers as blasphemy. (What happens with consecrated wafers that break before use? There must be a protocol; obviously I missed it in this discussion. Are they buried at Golgotha, or in Vatican City in a special "Broken Host Holy Graveyard"?)
Here's how I'd suggest those whose panties are in a knot look at this situation:
1) They believe these wafers ARE the body of Christ (the Host)
2) They believe Jesus Christ IS God (or, at the very least, his dearly beloved only child)
3) They believe Jesus/God is/are omnipotent & omniscient (or pretty damn close) and can influence the course of events in people's lives if he/they so choose
and, less important but still a consideration:
4) They tend to believe that people who don't believe like they do can only benefit from experiences which may bring them chances to See The Light.
So, why don't these knotted-undies people put TRUST in their deity that He could SMITE* anyone who even THINKS of misusing a communion wafer? Whether said smiting* occurs in the Blasphemer's lifetime, or is deferred until the afterlife?
(*SMITING, or one of the modern equivalents of smiting, which start at "having a really bad day", ramps up to "audited by IRS", then on to affliction with disease & "natural" disasters, & to "horrible and/or untimely death", etc.)
Have they considered that maybe this is a CHANCE for those non-believers to come into close contact with, and be TRANSFORMED (spiritually, not physically) by touching the Host? Maybe their deity actually WANTS this to happen, has been TRYING to get the communion wafers into the hands of more people, but these well-meaning bunched-undies crowd have been THWARTING His attempts?
And, that in being so protective of these wafers they are suggesting that their deity is weak & powerless, needs protection, etc. Sort of defeats the point of believing in, and worshiping, a deity, doesn't it? How about substituting a cute defenseless animal to worship in place of Jesus - say, maybe, The Favorite Puppy of God?
Finally, I don't believe that the Bible actually says a single word about the proper handling of communion wafers OR the body of the Host; remember the story is that the disciples were going to anoint the body but never got a chance. - Oh, sorry. I forgot for a moment that they are certain that they KNOW what their deity wants, that (conveniently) the Pope hears directly from God regarding the Right Way to conduct religious rituals, etc.
*Sheesh* |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2008 : 15:36:49 [Permalink]
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| Oh, and it appears that Benjamin Collard either is or is not guilty until proven innocent, depending upon how favorably one wishes to look at UCF's policy regarding the treatment of students accused of violating the rules of conduct. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2008 : 17:30:39 [Permalink]
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| Over at "The Curt Jester," Jeff Miller desecrates a microscope in retaliation for PZ's desecration, clearly missing out on the "no idea is sacred" part of PZ's message, and obviously lacking in Photoshop skillz. Some of the comments were so ridiculous that I had to open my yap over there, too. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2008 : 21:48:20 [Permalink]
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| Bill Donohue's latest in response to Chancellor Johnson's refusal to take disciplinary action against PZ Myers and her later clarification. Is "We will let the Catholic community know of your decision" a thinly veiled threat? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 03:43:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Bill Donohue's latest in response to Chancellor Johnson's refusal to take disciplinary action against PZ Myers and her later clarification. Is "We will let the Catholic community know of your decision" a thinly veiled threat?
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Cry me a river, Bill; cry me a fucking river. Then take your preposterous & vicious superstition, hold it up to the light, and explain to me why I should have any respect or even tolorance for it whatsoever.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 18:53:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Didn't see it, Dave, and this guy is thin-skinned enough that I don't expect to. |
Someone else's comment has been approved over there, sometime in the last six hours or so. I was going to give the padre until after the weekend to show that he's not a typical jerk who won't publish rational and polite comments that don't agree with him, but I think I can safely cut that short. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 08:31:23 [Permalink]
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I'd comment over there, but I'm too damned angry at this...a cracker and they go nuts. Pedophiles priests, no problem.
I just can't think of any words: So, I'll post a link to a picture instead, just to piss those pricks off.
Link
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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A Christian (Catholic) sense of proportion...
