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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
 Posted - 07/14/2008 : 07:39:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
As for the cracker/painting comparison -- there is none. One is art of the finest effort and the other is just a stupid cracker bouyed up by one of the world's more pathetic superstitions. |
I think the Mona Lisa is possibly the most overrated piece of art ever produced. In fact, most pieces of art are too highly valued.
I think the cracker IS "just a stupid cracker".
| That the Mona Lisa has been copied a million times is nothing more than tribute to the original artist. |
Or a tribute to the mighty dollar ... or an non rational belief that the Mona Lisa is great.
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 07:54:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
But why would anyone expect to catholics in question to just shrug their shoulders and say: "Oh well, it WAS just a cracker. Who cares". |
I'm not. I'm (apparently) foolishly expecting Catholics to behave with the love and forgiveness their own God preaches, and speak out against their own brothers who screw it up. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 07:57:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
I think Mab will be safe from any FBI investigation. His email was innocuous. |
Safe? From the U.S. Government? At the very least his email addy will go on some list of foreigners who stick their noses in American affairs. 
No, really: |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 08:31:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
Originally posted by filthy
As for the cracker/painting comparison -- there is none. One is art of the finest effort and the other is just a stupid cracker bouyed up by one of the world's more pathetic superstitions. |
I think the Mona Lisa is possibly the most overrated piece of art ever produced. In fact, most pieces of art are too highly valued.
I think the cracker IS "just a stupid cracker".
| That the Mona Lisa has been copied a million times is nothing more than tribute to the original artist. |
Or a tribute to the mighty dollar ... or an non rational belief that the Mona Lisa is great.
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In the eye of the beholder, no? I think that, what with Leonardo's other accomplishments, he could have painted out the skid marks in his skivvies and the work would be venerated. ML isn't to my taste either, but I have little say in the matter because, you see, having just bought a motorscooter, I have no money. Didn't really have all that much before that practical purchase.
You are correct about the almighty dollar. Historically, only the wealthy have ever been able to commission and own fine art, and the foremost artists of the day sucked up to them shamelessly. Indeed, they still do.
Did you ever hear of a truck driver owning a Picasso, an artist I like, by the bye? No. We have to settle for prints and even those are pricey, the good ones at least.
So there is really no way to compare holy crackers with Leonardo's work. The one is merely a cracker with a myth supported by faith in a fiction that cannot change, and the other is an actual object supported by consensus opinion that can.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 08:33:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
You're right, as always. I'm filing this under "Things to remember for next time". I need to become less rash.
Edited to add:
Merriam-Webster tells me that Sir means
1a: a man entitled to be addressed as sir...
2a: used as a usually respectful form of address. b: capitalized —used as a conventional form of address in the salutation of a letter
But definition 2a at Webster doesn't make any mention of gender designation.
There was an occasion in London where I and my girlfriend were addressed as "Sirs", which lead me to the (faulty?) conclusion that Sir isn't strictly gender specific. |
Though M-W has a gender non-specific definition of the word "sir," American usage implies masculinity (perhaps England is a little more progressive in this respect? I don't know). I will never knowingly call a woman "sir," just as I will never knowingly call a man "ma'am."
It is well known that we don't have a gender non-specific honorific, but I don't know what is being done to fix that.
On to the main point, I don't think quoting the bible at a Catholic will accomplish as much as it would for other faiths. Catholic tradition has the priests read and interpret the bible for the laymen. This was one of the points in Martin Luther's disagreements with the Church.
Also, if you are going to quote scripture at a Catholic, use the New American Translation. I am too lazy to see if you did, but I figure I'll put the advice down here anyway. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 08:59:41 [Permalink]
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Hawks said:
No, but imagine a hypothetical situation where you have invited someone to your home. You show that someone the card and tell them how precious it is to you. You would probably be quite peeved if that someone stole the card.
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Well, seeing as how they GAVE him the cracker...
It'd be like you comming into my house, I give you something, then get pissed off when you walk out with it.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 09:07:22 [Permalink]
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Curiouser'n curioser: an interesting development:
ORANGE COUNTY, FL -- A Catholic student group is facing hazing charges after a worshiper allegedly used force while trying to rescue a communion wafer from a student leader smuggling it out of Mass.
Catholics consider the consecrated wafer, the Eucharist, among the most sacred objects in the world and believe it becomes the 'Body of Christ' through transubstantiation.
Student Government Senator Webster Cook filed the hazing charges with University of Central Florida administrators shortly after he admitted violating church rules by bringing the Eucharist home from Mass on June 29, then holding it hostage for one week in a plastic bag before returning it.
Cook said his hazing complaint cited a UCF anti-hazing policy banning the forced consumption of any food in which the initiation or admission into or affiliation with a University of Central Florida organization may be directly or indirectly conditioned. |
Nice to see the boy is fighting the insanity back. And who knows, we might have a budding atheist coming into our midst.
It is true that he violated church rules, but, as the OP states, the reaction was badly out of proportion to the violation. These come off as people who would happily go back to stoning for such things.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 09:27:02 [Permalink]
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I had a discussion with Michelle about the cracker incident last night. She didn't know about it because she has been out of town for the last week.
Her position is that the guy who stole the cracker, shouldn't have. But yes, death threats and assault are way over the top as a response to his actions. She is disappointed in Myers for taking it as far as he did. She described his protest as sophomoric. A frat prank not worthy of him.
She makes the point that as rational as we may be, we will not get through to the people who view the cracker as the Catholics do. For them, it's the host. It's the body of Christ and that's that. A rational argument vs. an irrationally held belief is all well and good, but in cases like the sacraments, the rational argument amounts to preaching to the choir. And to the extent that Myers took it, baiting the irrational to be even more irrational than usual proved nothing more than what we already knew. That is, there are nutballs out there who don't even understand their own scripture which is a point that Dave has argued well.
I'm inclined to agree with her, even though we argued a bit over Myers reaction and protest.
Naturally, we both agree that the death threats and such should be dealt with. But as Randi told me, it's the quiet ones you have to worry about…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 12:24:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I had a discussion with Michelle about the cracker incident last night. She didn't know about it because she has been out of town for the last week.
Her position is that the guy who stole the cracker, shouldn't have. But yes, death threats and assault are way over the top as a response to his actions. She is disappointed in Myers for taking it as far as he did. She described his protest as sophomoric. A frat prank not worthy of him.
She makes the point that as rational as we may be, we will not get through to the people who view the cracker as the Catholics do. For them, it's the host. It's the body of Christ and that's that. A rational argument vs. an irrationally held belief is all well and good, but in cases like the sacraments, the rational argument amounts to preaching to the choir. And to the extent that Myers took it, baiting the irrational to be even more irrational than usual proved nothing more than what we already knew. That is, there are nutballs out there who don't even understand their own scripture which is a point that Dave has argued well.
I'm inclined to agree with her, even though we argued a bit over Myers reaction and protest.
Naturally, we both agree that the death threats and such should be dealt with. But as Randi told me, it's the quiet ones you have to worry about…
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Experience has taught me that Randi is exactly right. The ones that make the most noise do the least.
I also agree that PZ's reaction was in the heat of the moment and not well thought out, like my own sometimes, but I agree with his basic premise: such vicious nonsense should not go unopposed, indeed, should be trampled upon whenever it pulls it's foul head out of it's loathsome ass. It's this sort of thing often give dictators impetus, religions unwarrented power, and alledged presidents a false sense of their own worth.
I'll stand with PZ on this one.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 14:48:51 [Permalink]
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Well, PZ has asked people to stop the harrassment of the death-threat senders, and updated the original thread with a big, bold "don't do it"-type disclaimer at the top.
Melanie Kroll has proclaimed her innocence, but the "threat is empty nonetheless" line indicates that either she knows the offending party, or that she has ESP.
And still, PZ says in an interview that he must "do something that shows this cracker has no power." Some would suggest that such a statement indicates that he is in in thrall to the cracker already.
ETA: I beat filthy by 28 seconds! Woot! |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 14:49:19 [Permalink]
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The beat goes on; an interview: Myers: "It's so darned weird that they're demanding that I offer this respect to a symbol that means nothing to me."
By Paul Schmelzer Jul 14 2008 | 17 Comments
Once a Lutheran altar boy, University of Minnesota biology professor Morris P.Z. Myers has fallen from grace -- at least in the eyes of some Catholics and the conservative Catholic League. One of the more prominent atheist voices in America, Myers wrote a blog post on the furor sparked by a Florida college student who smuggled a communion wafer out of mass and, once found out, received threats of harm and death. Catholics believe the bread, once blessed by a priest, has been transformed into the substance of Christ's body and blood. Myers doesn't buy it. He wrote that if readers of his blog send him a consecrated host, "I'll show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare."
I reached him this morning to discuss the controversy that has resulted in several thousand comments at his blog -- some calling him a "Jewboy," others announcing his need for prayer, and still others calling for his death.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 20:16:11 [Permalink]
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Kil said:
| Her position is that the guy who stole the cracker, shouldn't have. |
Explain to me how you can "steal" a communion cracker!
The pedophilepriest GIVES YOU THE CRACKER!
How can you steal something that was given to you in full knowledge that it would not be returned?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 20:26:15 [Permalink]
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Myers says one thing that I think bears reading:
MnIndy: What about the stories of US military personnel urinating on and otherwise abusing copies of the Koran in Iraq? Were you outraged by that, or is that a different version of this for you?
Myers: There's a subtle difference there -- maybe an important difference. I don't favor the idea of going to somebody's home or to something they own and possess and consider very important, like a graveyard -- going to a grave and desecrating that. That's something completely different. Because what you're doing is doing harm to something unique and something that is rightfully part of somebody else -- it's somebody else's ownership. The cracker is completely different. This is something that's freely handed out. |
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 22:23:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
How can you steal something that was given to you in full knowledge that it would not be returned? |
This is an interesting question.
Webster Cook was given a wafer, but by his own account, when people saw that he wasn't using it in the manner they intended, they tried to stop him and get it back. (I'm still unsure as to how he left with it still in his possession without further violence.)
Given that the tradition of communion is restricted to only Catholics and Orthodox Christians, and to only those in a certain "state of grace" (whatever that might mean), is there an implied contractual obligation to use the wafer only in a particular manner? In other words, regardless of the transsubstaniation nonsense, had the priest known ahead of time what Cook intended to do, would the priest have given him the wafer at all?
I doubt it.
Just like I wouldn't give a extra hammer of mine to a neighbor if I knew he intended to kill his wife with it.
However, once given, can it legally be said to have been stolen? I'm leaning towards "no," but I'm unsure of the "implied contract" mentioned above. If the hammer example, definitely not. But the wafer, I'm not so sure.
After all, if you're at a Catholic Mass, and a devout Catholic there knows you're not Catholic, they generally will tell you that you're not allowed to participate in Communion.
And probably the worst part of this whole story is that if Cook had waited until after the service was over and just asked the priest if his buddy could see a wafer, he probably could have left with a handful of unconsecrated wafers, freely given with no fuss.
Obviously contrived, but it's getting really late here: if I'm hosting a kid's birthday party, and want to split up the kids into teams for games, and come up with the idea of handing out colored gumballs (randomly picked) to determine who's on which team, I'd get slightly annoyed by the kids who misuse the gumballs by chewing them before I give them the go-ahead. But if I've got extras after the party, then kids who ask me if I've got more are going to get them, because at that point the gumballs aren't "special" any more.
Nah, I still wouldn't call it "stealing," even though I was trying to maintain some control over the gumballs after having given them away by telling the kids not to chew them until I said it was okay. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/15/2008 : 04:32:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Well, PZ has asked people to stop the harrassment of the death-threat senders, and updated the original thread with a big, bold "don't do it"-type disclaimer at the top.
Melanie Kroll has proclaimed her innocence, but the "threat is empty nonetheless" line indicates that either she knows the offending party, or that she has ESP.
And still, PZ says in an interview that he must "do something that shows this cracker has no power." Some would suggest that such a statement indicates that he is in in thrall to the cracker already.
ETA: I beat filthy by 28 seconds! Woot!
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Drat! 
I think that, from a legal point of view, the worst Cook could be charged with is petty theft, or perhaps obtaining a snack under false pretenses, and either would be instantly chucked by a judge with a few nasty comments concerning wasting the court's time. Hell, even a Catholic judge would toss that turkey.
The problem here is that it is all religious bullshit, and thus, beyond the realms of the rational. The responses to the swiped cracker were irrational and PZ's (and my own among many others) were, initially anyway, irrational albeit not quite to the same degree.
But it's been fun and a little moral outrage is good for soothing the mind if not the digestion. I'll continue to follow it along for the amusement, but probably not involve myself further beyond a few comments here.
The thought occurs: what worse desecration could there be than actually eating the damned thing? It gets ground into pulp between a set of teeth of varying quality as it's mixed with enzyme-filled saliva, squeezed down a slimy gullet like a rat being swallowed by a snake to land in a putrid acid bath along with the remnants of breakfast, there to quite possibly be feasted upon by an endoparasites or two. From that point, it passes on through an intestinal system and is eventually released into a septic tank or the equivalent, leaving scarcely the memory of it's ingestion, sacred no longer.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 07/15/2008 04:34:58 |
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A Christian (Catholic) sense of proportion...
