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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2008 : 13:44:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
It's irrelevant what I or any other professing Christian says. It is completely relevant what Christ says and he says: "You must be born again." |
And Catholics (and Mormons) consider baptism to be being born again. They just don't call themselves "born again" like a small sub-set of Christians do.| All depends on the meaning you pour into the name Christ. It's rather obvious that the Christian Jesus and Mormon Jesus are not one in the same. |
Why?| For like the first time in their entire history and the church either split or was on the verge of spiting over the issue. So once again, if you take the entire history of the Episcopalians the vast majority did not believe that open homosexuals could be born again at the same time. |
Episcopalians are "born again" through ceremonial baptism, usually while infants. And yes, they are on the verge of a schism due to their openly gay bishop - but it's a minority of the Episcopalians who are splitting off because they find their gay bishop offensive.| Please define gay-hating and what do you base this opinion from? |
"Love the sinner, hate the sin," right?| Of course that is what I mean. There is a big difference between one who claims to be Christian and wrestles with the temptation of homosexual desires and is remorseful when/if they fall vs. one who claims to be Christian while professoning to be homosexual and rejecting the notion that it is a sin of the flesh. |
What does it matter once someone is "saved?"
Can a person be "unsaved?" |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 14:00:50 [Permalink]
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Oh, and earlier:Originally posted by Bill scott
Cruel? It's not cruel to warn someone of certain demise and then to not only warn them but show them the way out as well. In fact that is the exact opposite of cruel and is compassion. |
Your theology is all screwed up. Eternal life is guaranteed for all, it's just that some will spend it in eternal torment. And some will spend it in eternal torment for things that they cannot control - regardless of any alleged "way out" - and that's what is cruel.| More semantics. Warning someone of a believed certain demise and showing them the way out does not equal bullying others. |
No, "believe what I believe or you will be punished forever" is bullying, clear and simple.| You just accuse ALL Christians of being mean, nasty, bullies because you are an intolerant bigot towards Christians. |
No, I accuse the God that Christians worship of being a mean, nasty bully. That many of them find such bullying fulfilling and so bully their fellow humans is a normal human fault. Some Christians are not bullies, and a few have actually told me to read the Bible but ignore the unpleasant nastiness in there.| Sure I could find a minority of those who call themselves Christian who may bully others but, on the same token I could find a percentage of skeptical atheists who bully others just as easy, so that is a moot argument. |
Still, this is about hypocrisy. Jesus essentially preaches bullying while also preaching compassion. Atheists may or may not be bullies, but they don't have a make-believe god sending them mixed messages.| The Bible says we are not to judge hypocritically but we are to judge. We all judge. By you judging me for being judgmental you have in fact made judgment on me. |
Again: it doesn't matter what I do. You keep trying to make this a tu quoque argument, forgiving Christian behavior because atheists do it, too. But atheists don't have a magic book which tells them how to be good little sheep.If I call someone who killed in cold blood a murder and ask for justice I have made a judgment on that person.
The women had been judged for her act of adultery and was guilty. We know this because Christ told her to "go and sin no more". But before this he warned the crowd of judging with the wrong motives and hypocritically when he told the them that "he who is without sin may cast the first stone". |
And here you are essentially telling me that you think you are so sinless as to be able to judge Boltz without being hypocritical. Doesn't Jesus have anything to say about arrogance?| Look fellow, in just the last two posts alone you have accused all Christians of being mean, nasty, bullies who's code for "your going straight to hell with no chance of redemption" is "I will pray for you". Can you finally yet see why I accuse you of wallowing in semantics like a pig in mud? |
Well, now that it's clear that you've got your own, private defintion of "Christian" you might want to rethink your accusations about playing semantic games.
Also:| Because I am still in the flesh. |
And as soon as you're not, you lose your free will. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 14:18:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by astropin |
| And the point remains that roughly 7% of those "Christians" are homosexual themselves. |
Interesting. So you claim that 7% of the Methodist population are homosexual while the general US population comes in at under 2.8%.
Can you point me in the direction of the source for your 7% figure please. Thanks.
http://www.citizenlink.org/CLBriefs/A000007323.cfm
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The Social Organization of Sex: Sexual Practices in the United States (Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, and Michaels, 1994) study cites that 7.7 percent of men and 7.5 of women have strong same-sex attractions. Only 2.8 percent of men and 1.4 of women consider themselves homosexuals.
If your attracted to the same sex your homosexual or at least bi-sexual ....whether or not you CONSIDER yourself homosexual.
http://www.gaydemographics.org/USA/2000_Census_Total.htm |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 04:28:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| If you define Christians as simply that group of people who worship and follow Christ, then you need to include Catholics and Mormons |
All depends on the meaning you pour into the name Christ. It's rather obvious that the Christian Jesus and Mormon Jesus are not one in the same. |
Ok; first of all, you need to precise the evangelist Christian Jesus.
Otherwise, your argument is quite circular.
And frankly, yeah, they do believe in the same dude. The one whose teaching were taught in the Bible. Sure, there is disagreement about the details; but really the core ideas are the same. |
Boy, I am afraid we will have to open a whole new thread if you are under the impression that the Mormon Jesus and the Christian Jesus are one in the same.
| They believe that he was God incarnated into flesh; that he performed miracles; was crucified; resurrected and that his history was accurately described into the bible. |
Your misrepresenting Mormons here.
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By extension, are you suggesting that Mormons due to their mistaken beliefs and manner of worship are destine to spend eternity in hell? |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 09:02:02 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| It's irrelevant what I or any other professing Christian says. It is completely relevant what Christ says and he says: "You must be born again." |
And Catholics (and Mormons) consider baptism to be being born again. They just don't call themselves "born again" like a small sub-set of Christians do. |
Then they are confused as that would make Christianity a works religion, which it is not. There are no works that earns point towards salvation whether it be baptism, or speaking in tongues, wailing on a wall or whatever. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
| All depends on the meaning you pour into the name Christ. It's rather obvious that the Christian Jesus and Mormon Jesus are not one in the same. |
Why? |
Where do I start?
http://www.feasite.org/Foundation/fbcmormonism.htm
| Episcopalians are "born again" through ceremonial baptism, usually while infants. |
But again, essential Christian doctrine clearly teaches that a ceremonial baptism does not make you "born again".
| And yes, they are on the verge of a schism due to their openly gay bishop - but it's a minority of the Episcopalians who are splitting off because they find their gay bishop offensive. |
While I am sure some of those who opposed the gay bishop decided to stay. Regardless my claim never had anything to do with the Episcopalian denomination or bishops but rather said that the majority of Christians do not believe that a open homosexual can be born again at the same time. But more importantly this is what is taught in scripture.
| Please define gay-hating and what do you base this opinion from? |
"Love the sinner, hate the sin," right? |
Look, for a Christian to tell an un-repentant homosexual that he is going to hell to be considered "gay-hating" is just your tendencies for semantics popping up again.
1. The Christian should be warning all unrepentant people of there coming demise. This is not a message reserved only for homosexuals.
2. They offer the unrepentant sinner a way out as well so this, in reality, is an act of compassion and not hate.
| Of course that is what I mean. There is a big difference between one who claims to be Christian and wrestles with the temptation of homosexual desires and is remorseful when/if they fall vs. one who claims to be Christian while professoning to be homosexual and rejecting the notion that it is a sin of the flesh. |
What does it matter once someone is "saved?"
Can a person be "unsaved?" |
I don't believe so. Which means that someone who proclaims Christ but, then walks away, could have never had a real conversion to begin with. It has to be considered. This is the case of Boltz.
| Cruel? It's not cruel to warn someone of certain demise and then to not only warn them but show them the way out as well. In fact that is the exact opposite of cruel and is compassion. |
Your theology is all screwed up. Eternal life is guaranteed for all, it's just that some will spend it in eternal torment. |
I agree. When I said the Christian is warning of a certain demise I am referring to a demise much worse then the physical death of the body.
| And some will spend it in eternal torment for things that they cannot control |
They will be there by their own choice.
| - regardless of any alleged "way out" - |
They were shown the way out but just rejected it.
| and that's what is cruel. |
It's not cruel to warn someone of future demise no matter how bad you want it to be.
More semantics. Warning someone of a believed certain demise and showing them the way out does not equal bullying others. |
No, "believe what I believe or you will be punished forever" is bullying, clear and simple. |
More semantics. It is more like, "here is what I believe now you will believe what you will but at least I did the best I know how to try and warn you of the believed demise I see ahead for you."
Not even close to bullying. In fact this much more aligns with compassion then bullying.
| You just accuse ALL Christians of being mean, nasty, bullies because you are an intolerant bigot towards Christians. |
No, I accuse the God that Christians worship of being a mean, nasty bully. That many of them find such bullying fulfilling and so bully their fellow humans is a normal human fault. Some Christians are not bullies, and a few have actually told me to read the Bible but ignore the unpleasant nastiness in there. |
But again your using semantics. Spreading the gospel is not bullying. In fact in the great commission Christ says to dust off your pants and move on to the next town if your message is being rejected. He does not say that you are to push them around and make threats until they submit. Again, he says if your message is rejected then dust off and move on.
| Sure I could find a minority of those who call themselves Christian who may bully others but, on the same token I could find a percentage of skeptical atheists who bully others just as easy, so that is a moot argument. |
Still, this is about hypocrisy. Jesus essentially preaches bullying while also preaching compassion. Atheists may or may not be bullies, but they don't have a make-believe god sending them mixed messages. |
So I am clear what verse would you be referring to when you say that Jesus preaches bullying.
| The Bible says we are not to judge hypocritically but we are to judge. We all judge. By you judging me for being judgmental you have in fact made judgment on me. |
Again: it doesn't matter what I do. You keep trying to make this a tu quoque argument, forgiving Christian behavior because atheists do it, too. But atheists don't have a magic book which tells them how to be good little sheep. |
I don't care what atheist do. You keep trying to make the claim that Christians are not to judge and I say that is not true. We are commanded not to judge self-righteously or hypocritically.
If I call someone who killed in cold blood a murder and ask for justice I have made a judgment on that person.
The women had been judged for her act of adultery and was guilty. We know this because Christ told her to "go and sin no more". But before this he warned the crowd of judging with the wrong motives and hypocritically when he told the them that "he who is without sin may cast the first stone". |
And here you are essentially telling me that you think you are so sinless as to be able to judge Boltz without being hypocritical. Doesn't Jesus have anything to say about arrogance? |
I am not judging Boltz. I certainly cannot say whether Ray Boltz is a Christian or not. Shoot for I know this whole homosexual thing might just be some kind of stunt for attention, who knows? My point being is that I never fall into the trap of thinking that I know someone else's heart. Only God could know that.
| Look fellow, in just the last two posts alone you have accused all Christians of being mean, nasty, bullies who's code for "your going straight to hell with no chance of redemption" is "I will pray for you". Can you finally yet see why I accuse you of wallowing in semantics like a pig in mud? |
Well, now that it's clear that you've got your own, private defintion of "Christian" you might want to rethink your accusations about playing semantic games. |
Well I rethought it and my conclusion remains that you wallow in it.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 09/24/2008 09:47:45 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 09:30:42 [Permalink]
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| But again, essential Christian doctrine clearly teaches that a ceremonial baptism does make you "born again". |
Indeed; baptism is supposed to wash of the original sin and bring you into the church.
Most Christians consider it to be all the 'born again' you need.
Look, for a Christian to tell an un-repentant homosexual that he is going to hell to be considered "gay-hating" is just your tendencies for semantics popping up again. |
Obvious as it is; I feel the need to ask, at this point; what do you base yourself on to decide that homosexuality is a sin? If I recall; the Leviticus is no longer considered relevant since Jesus' sacrifice (hence, Christians can now eat shellfish).
Can a person be "unsaved?"
I don't believe so. Which means that someone who proclaims Christ but, then walks away, could have never had a real conversion to begin with. It has to be considered. This is the case of Boltz.
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You gotta love a religion with such a 'no true Scotsman' inherently built in.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 10:02:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by astropin |
| And the point remains that roughly 7% of those "Christians" are homosexual themselves. |
Interesting. So you claim that 7% of the Methodist population are homosexual while the general US population comes in at under 2.8%.
Can you point me in the direction of the source for your 7% figure please. Thanks.
http://www.citizenlink.org/CLBriefs/A000007323.cfm
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The Social Organization of Sex: Sexual Practices in the United States (Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, and Michaels, 1994) study cites that 7.7 percent of men and 7.5 of women have strong same-sex attractions. Only 2.8 percent of men and 1.4 of women consider themselves homosexuals.
If your attracted to the same sex your homosexual or at least bi-sexual ....whether or not you CONSIDER yourself homosexual.
http://www.gaydemographics.org/USA/2000_Census_Total.htm
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But you said 7% of the Christians who call themselves a methodist were gay. This study is not of Methodist Christians.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 10:06:50 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Simon |
| But again, essential Christian doctrine clearly teaches that a ceremonial baptism does make you "born again". |
Indeed; baptism is supposed to wash of the original sin and bring you into the church.
Most Christians consider it to be all the 'born again' you need. |
My bad. I missed adding "not". It does "not" make you born again. I revised it in the original post.
| Look, for a Christian to tell an un-repentant homosexual that he is going to hell to be considered "gay-hating" is just your tendencies for semantics popping up again. |
Obvious as it is; I feel the need to ask, at this point; what do you base yourself on to decide that homosexuality is a sin? If I recall; the Leviticus is no longer considered relevant since Jesus' sacrifice (hence, Christians can now eat shellfish). |
Romans:1 18-32
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
| Can a person be "unsaved?" |
I don't believe so. Which means that someone who proclaims Christ but, then walks away, could have never had a real conversion to begin with. It has to be considered. This is the case of Boltz. |
You gotta love a religion with such a 'no true Scotsman' inherently built in. |
The Bible teaches very clearly that many will preach the name of Christ simply for financial gain, political gain, etc...
So for me to say that false Christians are out there is by no means a stretch of any kind. Now when I start making claims that I have knowledge that Fred and Joe and Sally are false Christians then I have entered the grounds of hypocritical judgment. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 09/24/2008 10:25:20 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 10:12:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Then they are confused as that would make Christianity a works religion, which it is not. There are no works that earns point towards salvation whether it be baptism, or speaking in tongues, wailing on a wall or whatever. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. |
Of course, that debate has been going on for centuries, but you think you've got it all figured out. Bravo, Bill!You should have picked a different source. As soon as that one denied that the Bible is a collection of 66 books, and then cited Deuterotomy's injunction against adding to God's Word, I couldn't take any more of the idiotic hypocrisy.| But again, essential Christian doctrine clearly teaches that a ceremonial baptism does make you "born again". |
Tell that to the Pope.| While I am sure some of those who opposed the gay bishop decided to stay. Regardless my claim never had anything to do with the Episcopalian denomination or bishops but rather said that the majority of Christians do not believe that a open homosexual can be born again at the same time. But more importantly this is what is taught in scripture. |
No, it's what you are reading into scripture, just like everyone else who reads it.Look, for a Christian to tell an un-repentant homosexual that he is going to hell to be considered "gay-hating" is just your tendencies for semantics popping up again.
1. The Christian should be warning all unrepentant people of there coming demise. This is not a message reserved only for homosexuals.
2. They offer the unrepentant sinner a way out as well so this, in reality, is an act of compassion and not hate. |
Let me get this straight: God makes some creations, and then punishes some of them for all eternity because of a fault that God built into them. God is an ass. Obviously, some people like that sort of monstrosity, and follow God's example. Some, like you, Bill, have made up so many excuses for God's bad behavior that you think you're doing good by spreading His "message."| I don't believe so. Which means that someone who proclaims Christ but, then walks away, could have never had a real conversion to begin with. It has to be considered. This is the case of Boltz. |
As Simon noted, that's simply brilliant excuse-making. Say a guy is brought up in the faith, is born again at 21, and lives, walks and breathes the faith for decades, then has a temporal-lobe head injury. Afterwards, he is a womanizing thief, doing things he'd never done or even considered doing before. You, Bill, would prefer to think that his previous faith was all a lie than that he fell out of grace or - worse yet - is still saved?| I agree. When I said the Christian is warning of a certain demise I am referring to a demise much worse then the physical death of the body. |
There you go, inventing new meanings for words again, while accusing me of playing semantic games.| And some will spend it in eternal torment for things that they cannot control |
They will be there by their own choice. |
Nope. God gave them that choice, without asking. He could have ensured that nobody would ever wind up in torment, but He did not. Everything that happens does so by God's Will. To deny that is to deny God's power.| They were shown the way out but just rejected it. |
Not the people born before Christ. Moses is in Hell right now because He couldn't possibly be saved, Bill.| It's not cruel to warn someone of future demise no matter how bad you want it to be. |
It is cruel to punish people for doing what you built them to do.More semantics. It is more like, "here is what I believe now you will believe what you will but at least I did the best I know how to try and warn you of the believed demise I see ahead for you."
Not even close to bullying. In fact this much more aligns with compassion then bullying. |
Yes, I agree that you are playing semantic games, Bill.| But again your using semantics. Spreading the gospel is not bullying. In fact in the great commission Christ says to dust off your pants and move on to the next town if your message is being rejected. He does not say that you are to push them around and make threats until they submit. Again, he says if your message is rejected then dust off and move on. |
That's not the sort of bullying I'm talking about and you know it, Bill.| So I am clear what verse would you be referring to when you say that Jesus preaches bullying. |
Any verse that references a lake of fire, for example.| I don't care what atheist do. You keep trying to make the claim that Christians are not to judge and I say that is not true. We are commanded not to judge self-righteously or hypocritically. |
And every time I point out the hypocrisy, you change the subject.| I am not judging Boltz. I certainly cannot say whether Ray Boltz is a Christian or not. Shoot for I know this whole homosexual thing might just be some kind of stunt for attention, who knows? My point being is that I never fall into the trap of thinking that I know someone else's heart. Only God could know that. |
Saying that he cannot be saved because he's openly gay is absolutely judging him, Bill. It's also a claim that you know the will of God. Ecclesiastes says different.| Well I rethought it and my conclusion remains that you wallow in it. |
And yet you're the one with private meanings and playing switcheroo with terms. You're a massive hypocrite, yet you still judge. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 10:18:09 [Permalink]
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Bill Scott:
The Bible teaches very clearly that many will preach the name of Christ simply for financial gain, political gain, etc... |
Oh, you mean Republicans...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 12:09:49 [Permalink]
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How Christians interpret
biblical passages on homosexuality
Clearly Bill you subscribe to the fundamentalist view with regard to interpretation of the bible.
Also, you keep trying to say that a minority view (if that is even what it is in this case) disqualifies it from consideration as though biblical interpretation is up for election. Based on that line of reasoning, the fundamentalist interpretation must be considered wrong if it can be shown to be the minority view.
I know that you will not subscribe to the majority view if it differs from the fundamentalist interpretation of scripture. So even bringing up what most Christians think to defend against what some Christians think is not an honest defense of your literalist interpretation.
As has been pointed out, you will employ the no true Scotsman fallacy no matter how popular the fundamentalist interpretation of scripture is. It's a built in fallacy among literalists because they claim to have cornered the market on “Truth.” Of course, being the sole possessors of the “Truth” means that reason is replaced by apologetics.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 12:45:39 [Permalink]
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| They were shown the way out but just rejected it. |
Not the people born before Christ. Moses is in Hell right now because He couldn't possibly be saved, Bill. |
Actually, I think there is an apocryphical text that deals with what happened during the three days he was 'dead' that explains how he went to hell to save three of the most important anterior prophets. I am pretty sure that Moses was one of them. Probably Abraham too. Not sure about the last one at all. Maybe Oprah.
Yeah... Romans. It is one of St Paul's Epistles.
It is St Paul's interpretation of Jesus' teaching, but it is not the teaching themselves and I don't really see any reason for St Paul's interpretation to trump mine. Let alone that of other expert theologians that decided that homosexuality was no big deal after all.
For those who don't know. It is a letter written St Paul; an evangelist but one that never meet Jesus.
The guy had founded a bunch of churches around the Agean sea and was on his way to Jerusalem when he was going to fight for the control of the church between him, leader of many new churches that gathered for a big part to gentiles of Greek origin and the old guard, Jews that had known Jesus; including Jesus own brother.
Anyway, before he starts this long travel, he heard of troubles in the churches he had founded. A new teacher with a different interpretation that was gaining influence.
So; he wrote this letter to try and settle his power base in his abscence. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 13:21:23 [Permalink]
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Christianists ain't Christian.
We all know that Tony Perkins is a douche. But not merely an ordinary douche, no. He is also the resurrected, necrotic slime from the bottom of the coffin of some other, no longer douching douche, and I'd like to know why this lying, unctuous, odoriferous super-douche is at all listened to by anyone not having had a pre-frontal lobotomy. There is a huge difference between Christians, the followers of a large number of separate, often mutually antagonistic, religions, and christianists, political radicals who use the symbols of Christianity in order to gain secular power. Christianists deliberately confuse the two.
In these excerpts from a letter by Tony Perkins, the technique is quite clear. They highlight the importance for liberals of distinguishing religious discrimination - which is wrong - from the political marginialization of intolerant right wing hate groups and provocateurs - an essential action in a working democracy. In addition to confusing far right wing fanaticism with Christianity, note the gross distortions of reality and paranoid sense of victimization so typical of christianism: |
One can't help but notice in the link within the link, the cold, rot-scarred and scabbed with new infections hand reaching out toward the checkbooks of the faithful.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 09/24/2008 13:23:05 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 14:44:15 [Permalink]
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| I'd say that I agree with him. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Xian singer Ray Bolz admits he's gay.
